Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Can Atheism Account For Rationality
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight and I'm not sure why you don't get, the distinction has no rational merit.
Does the choice of "penny" for the "round, brown coin that is the smallest U.S. denomination" have "rational merit?"
Originally posted by seer View PostUnlike the distinction between a rock and a tree there is no objective way to judge between the natural and supernatural, what can be included or excluded. Besides a bald face assertion. Nothing more.
- Rock: the solid mineral material forming part of the surface of the earth and other similar planets, exposed on the surface or underlying the soil or oceans.
- Tree: a woody perennial plant, typically having a single stem or trunk growing to a considerable height and bearing lateral branches at some distance from the ground.
- Natural: existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
- Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
So if I find something matching the definition of "rock," I call it a rock. If I find something matching the definition of "tree," I call it a tree. If I find something matching the definition of "natural" I call it "natural." If I find something matching the definition of "supernatural," I call it "supernatural."
I have no clue what the fuss is about, or how you see any of these uses of language as different from one another.
Originally posted by seer View PostNo, I'm claiming that this universe as it stands is supernatural, and that you can not claim otherwise apart from a logically unjustifiable assertion.
Originally posted by seer View PostSure, I'm saying we can define things by comparison. We define a tree, we define a rock. We define they by physical qualities. You are not doing this with the universe because you do not know that this universe is natural or non-supernatural. They very qualities of this may just as well be qualities of a supernatural universe. How could you know? Compare to what?Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-15-2019, 07:50 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAgain, how can they, or in what sense are they, thoughts and memories, both material and immaterial? Would you say, is it your opinion, that stored, inactive memories are immaterial, or do they only become immaterial when they become aspects of conscious thoughts?
They are "immaterial" in so far as the experience of "mind" and "thought" and "memory" transcends the merely physical, and manifests as an "I" that is experiencing, thinking, and feeling. YOu (and Harris) want to call the latter an "illusion." You are free to is you wish. I do not.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThey are "material" in so far as we can trace the activities in the brain as electrochemical interactions.
They are "immaterial" in so far as the experience of "mind" and "thought" and "memory" transcends the merely physical, and manifests as an "I" that is experiencing, thinking, and feeling. YOu (and Harris) want to call the latter an "illusion." You are free to is you wish. I do not.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No you are just as clueless in defining natural. You (we) have no idea. You are free to use the term, but unlike the objective difference between a tree and a rock, have no objective comparison between the natural and supernatural. You are shooting in the dark with no objective reference.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThey are "material" in so far as we can trace the activities in the brain as electrochemical interactions.
They are "immaterial" in so far as the experience of "mind" and "thought" and "memory" transcends the merely physical, and manifests as an "I" that is experiencing, thinking, and feeling. YOu (and Harris) want to call the latter an "illusion." You are free to is you wish. I do not.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOkay, but the only way for there to be that "I" that you believe to be real, is if there is a spirit, a soul, the ghost in the machine if you will, and, however it be possible, that immaterial "I" would need be the mover or director of the material brain. Time for you to go back to church I think, carpe.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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On the basis of my experience of "I" and "self" and "consciousness."
Originally posted by Tassman View Postthey are not immaterial beyond the brainThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere is "no objective comparison between the natural and supernatural" because there is no good reason to posit the notion of the "supernatural" in the first place.
But I agree that the supernatural (most likely) does not exist outside of human mythology.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
So if I find something matching the definition of "rock," I call it a rock. If I find something matching the definition of "tree," I call it a tree. If I find something matching the definition of "natural" I call it "natural." If I find something matching the definition of "supernatural," I call it "supernatural."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostExcept we have no idea what the difference between the supernatural and natural actually is. Unlike the known properties or a rock or a tree we have no idea what the supernatural could or could not include. We have no frame of reference when calling one thing natural and another supernatural. These, unlike a rock or tree, are completely arbitrary definitions.
Originally posted by seer View PostTell me Carp, without taking arbitrary definitions at face value, why couldn't the supernatural include repeatable, predictable properties? How would you know?
Does that help you with your problem?Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-16-2019, 08:07 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAll definitions are "arbitrary" in so far as none of them is "necessary." We create symbols as a tool to reference reality. As such, we have defined "supernatural" and "natural" in a particular way to classify things/concepts, just as we have created "rock" and "tree" to classify things/concepts.
Seer, you don't seem to be struggling with the definitions of the terms, but rather with how we would go about assigning a particular thing to one class or another. Let's take "god" for instance. The concept of "god" or "gods" is widely accepted as belonging to the "supernatural class" and beyond the reach the science for investigation. This seems to be your hiccup. If it turns out that any god is real, and that god has repeatable/predictable/intelligible properties and can be investigated/verified by science, then that god would be deemed "natural" rather than "supernatural."
Does that help you with your problem?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut again, unlike with a rock or tree we have no objective, knowable qualities for the distinction between the natural and supernatural. Except that which we make up out of whole cloth.
Originally posted by seer View PostLike I made clear earlier, everything in the supernatural may not be open to investigation. That does mean some isn't. This universe being one of them. So again Carp, without taking arbitrary definitions at face value, why couldn't the supernatural include repeatable, predictable properties? How would you know?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK - I'm going to let my previous posts stand. You're apparently not going to see this. There is no distinction, but you apparently need to make/see one.
Like I said earlier - if science can investigate and falsify/verify it, then it's "natural." If it can't, then it's "supernatural." That's what the words mean. All definitions are "arbitrary." And I have gone around in circles on this often enough. If you haven't gotten it by now, I don't think it's going to happen. I'll leave the last word to you.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut again, unlike with a rock or tree we have no objective, knowable qualities for the distinction between the natural and supernatural. Except that which we make up out of whole cloth.
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