Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

[Sparko]

The reverse is true. The brain's functions and neurons in action are the mind. A dead brain equates to a dead mind. And a damaged brain equates to a damaged mind...experts can even predict what parts of the mind will be affected by specific types of brain damage.

That doesn't negate what I said. Even if the mind is completely dependent on the brain and not the soul or spirit, it is still something more than just the brain. It might be generated by the brain, but just like light is generated by a light bulb, the light is not the bulb. The mind is a self-conscious fully aware being that uses the brain to sense the world, and can actually control the brain's functions and neurons.

The mind is a gestalt of neural activity.

[Sparko]

No, it's not exactly the same, if it were, then your mentalese, your qualia, would be as clear as is direct sensory experience. You can imagine hearing your favorite music playing in your head, but it's not the same as actually hearing it. It's not actually there. Same with pictures. I don't know how the brain actually does it of course, but direct sensory experience and the imagination are certainly not the same thing. What you are suggesting is that there is a ghost in the machine with sense organs of its own which would make our physical bodily sense organs superfluous.

When you are having a vivid dream, you are seeing, smelling, hearing and feeling everything as if it were real. Your brain doesn't know the difference. Or when you are high on hallucinogens. You see or hear things that are not there, but you think they are. The brain doens't have sense organs of it's own. Our sense organs are just sensors that report to the brain which "sees" or "hears" it in the various areas of the brain dedicated to that. So if your mind stimulates those same areas of your brain sufficiently like in a dream, you will "see" or "hear" something just as if your eyes were reporting to that area of the brain.

[JonathanL]

Nothing has been shown to be NOT the case.

I'm not really sure what point you think you're making. Tassman made a claim (that the mind is reducible to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system) and nothing that he brought forth as "evidence" for that assertion managed to come close to establishing it as even more probably true than not.

[Leonhard]

Again Jim, if you close your eyes do see an image of your mother - I know for certain that I do. I'm not asking where it comes from or why - but do you see it? Yes or not?

I do, though its also not the same kind of visual experience as I get from my eyes. Its much more... nebulous... I struggle to describe it. But it always transitions indeterminately in various ways, I can't even hold the image steady. The more I think about the image the more it changes.

But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of same parts of the brain involved in visual cognition are involved in making those memories come alive in our minds.

[seer]

I do, though its also not the same kind of visual experience as I get from my eyes. Its much more... nebulous... I struggle to describe it. But it always transitions indeterminately in various ways, I can't even hold the image steady. The more I think about the image the more it changes.

But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of same parts of the brain involved in visual cognition are involved in making those memories come alive in our minds.

True, yet I have no problem holding a vision. How about dreams - do you get vivid and defined figures?

[Sparko]

I do, though its also not the same kind of visual experience as I get from my eyes. Its much more... nebulous... I struggle to describe it. But it always transitions indeterminately in various ways, I can't even hold the image steady. The more I think about the image the more it changes.

But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of same parts of the brain involved in visual cognition are involved in making those memories come alive in our minds.

It is because you are conscious and also getting input from other senses and your real eyes. However if you were asleep and having a lucid dream, you would see your mother perfectly down to the finest details. I remember having a lucid (waking) dream one time where I was suddenly aware I was dreaming. I was standing in the hallway at my old highs school and I began examining my surroundings, I walked up to the concrete block wall and could see every bump and feel the roughness of the concrete. It was like being there but I knew I was dreaming. Your mind can concentrate on images and such much more when you are asleep and there are no distractions because your body has been "cutoff"

I believe hypnosis also allows you to do this, but I have never been hypnotized so I can't know for sure.

[Leonhard]

True, yet I have no problem holding a vision. How about dreams - do you get vivid and defined figures?

I have dreams that seem very vivid, but I often wonder whether that experience is genuine or not. Do I actually see all those details, or am I mentally impaired and no paying attention to all the things that's missing.

Its not quite obvious either way. My personal guess is that our dreams aren't as vivid or full of details or consistency as our waking reality.

[Sparko]

I have dreams that seem very vivid, but I often wonder whether that experience is genuine or not. Do I actually see all those details, or am I mentally impaired and no paying attention to all the things that's missing.

Its not quite obvious either way. My personal guess is that our dreams aren't as vivid or full of details or consistency as our waking reality.

If you ever had a lucid dream you would be amazed at the detail.

[Leonhard]

If you ever had a lucid dream you would be amazed at the detail.

I've had recurring lucid dreams quite often. But I'm not convinced the level of detail is comparable to being awake. Its actually thinking back to the time when I experimented with having them deliberately, and got quite familiar with the differences between dreams and waking life, that I wonder if dreams are really as full of detail as we think at the time. I suspect details are actually filled in after we wake up, so the memories seem more vivid than they actually were.

[JimL]

That doesn't negate what I said. Even if the mind is completely dependent on the brain and not the soul or spirit, it is still something more than just the brain. It might be generated by the brain, but just like light is generated by a light bulb, the light is not the bulb. The mind is a self-conscious fully aware being that uses the brain to sense the world, and can actually control the brain's functions and neurons.

The mind is a gestalt of neural activity.

You're contradicting your self. If the mind is not a soul or spirit, then it's the brain. It's the brain. Your analogy with light and bulb gets your point across, but you have no such evidence of an existing mind as you do have with an existing light. It's simply part of your belief system that concludes that such a thing exists separate from the brain.

[JimL]

When you are having a vivid dream, you are seeing, smelling, hearing and feeling everything as if it were real.

Perhaps your dreams are that real, mine are not, and when I wake I can certainly recognize the difference between the dream and reality. But people are different, as star pointed out previously, some people don't experience qualia at all.

Your brain doesn't know the difference. Or when you are high on hallucinogens. You see or hear things that are not there, but you think they are. The brain doens't have sense organs of it's own. Our sense organs are just sensors that report to the brain which "sees" or "hears" it in the various areas of the brain dedicated to that. So if your mind stimulates those same areas of your brain sufficiently like in a dream, you will "see" or "hear" something just as if your eyes were reporting to that area of the brain.

Tell it to those people with Aphantasia.

[Starlight]

But people are different, as star pointed out previously, some people don't experience qualia at all.

That was not experiencing qualia of a particular type - a lack of visual memories. Those people experienced qualia in all other aspects of their lives.

If there is anyone who actually experiences no qualia in their lives, I haven't heard of such a person, and have no idea how we might test for it.

[Tassman]

That doesn't negate what I said. Even if the mind is completely dependent on the brain and not the soul or spirit, it is still something more than just the brain. It might be generated by the brain, but just like light is generated by a light bulb, the light is not the bulb.

The light might be more than the bulb but it is non-existent without the bulb; the two are inseparable components of the same entity.

The mind is a self-conscious fully aware being that uses the brain to sense the world, and can actually control the brain's functions and neurons.

The mind is a gestalt of neural activity.

But, when the brain is impaired, the mind is similarly impaired. When the brain dies the mind dies along with it.

[Sparko]

I've had recurring lucid dreams quite often. But I'm not convinced the level of detail is comparable to being awake. Its actually thinking back to the time when I experimented with having them deliberately, and got quite familiar with the differences between dreams and waking life, that I wonder if dreams are really as full of detail as we think at the time. I suspect details are actually filled in after we wake up, so the memories seem more vivid than they actually were.

No I am quite sure of the detail in my dreams. But then I am an artist and can visualize things pretty well even while awake.

Which brings up another example to show that the mind is immaterial and so is thought. I can visualize a drawing or painting in my head that doesn't exist, and then use my mind to control my body to create that drawing or paining in real life making it material.

[Sparko]

The light might be more than the bulb but it is non-existent without the bulb; the two are inseparable components of the same entity.

That is not true at all Tassman. Once the light is generated by the bulb, it is no longer dependent on the bulb. You can shine a flashlight into the sky, then turn it off and the light photons will continue to travel outwards until absorbed by something. We can see the light of stars that have burned out thousands of years ago.

But, when the brain is impaired, the mind is similarly impaired. When the brain dies the mind dies along with it.

Can you prove that?

There are people who report out of body experiences when they were clinically dead and then revived.