Originally posted by seer
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, god is not omnipotent? Btw, think about what your're saying. "determined by his own nature." That makes no sense. Determined by his own nature can mean only one thing with respect to god, i.e. that he is determined by himself, which is a contradiction in itself.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I don't use the term omnipotent because it can be misunderstood, God is supremely powerful. And it is not a contradiction to say that God is one thing and not another. What determined your nature? The universe? But what determined that?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe universe is neutral, it isn't a mind, it doesn't act, doesn't make choices, you can't define it as good or evil, just or unjust. The contradiction is to say that god is determined by himself, which is as much as to say that god is determined by his own free will, which again, is a statement that doesn't comply with logic.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim you are not making sense, it is not illogical to say that God is determined by his nature, or that He is partially determined but not wholly determined. And I didn't say he was determined by His free will.
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Originally posted by seer View PostThis doesn't make sense,
Originally posted by seer View Postwhere is this even hinted at in the definitions of authority?
Originally posted by seer View PostAgain this idea of consent is a qualification you have added.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut if you have citizens who don't buy into your social contract (let's say criminals) does the government have a right to punish law breakers even when they don't consent to the law or government rule?Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-12-2019, 10:13 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I don't use the term omnipotent because it can be misunderstood, God is supremely powerful. And it is not a contradiction to say that God is one thing and not another. What determined your nature? The universe? But what determined that?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostDoes god have free will, or is he determined, seer? You can't have it both ways. Pick one! If you are going to argue that he is free to do this but that he isn't free to do that, then you are just creating the image of god that satifies you.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou can use the term omnipotent and allow for that to be defined as being able to do all that is logically possible to do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou can use the term omnipotent and allow for that to be defined as being able to do all that is logically possible to do.
Hopefully, we can all see how absolutely true (if this hypothetical god exists), and completely useless, THAT statement is.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight, but like with Carp we still just end up going down the rabbit hole.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYour words, Seer: authority is about "power, right, and ability to enforce."
No - it is about the source of "right to govern" It is the very foundation of our democracy - the core concept espoused by the founding fathers. The "right" to govern must come from somewhere. Our FFs believed (as I do) that it arises from the governed.
In a government that is not based on "rule by consent of the governed," (e.g., dictatorships, monarchies, oligarchies, etc.) the government has no authority to rule.
In a government that IS based on "rule by the consent of the governed," the primary means of expressing consent is accepting citizenship. That is the core of our citizenship oath. So you cannot "be a citizen" and "not consent." If you don't consent, renounce your citizenship and go live elsewhere.
That was not the question, does the government have the right to punish criminals who don't agree with the social contract by break the laws of the land?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBecause the statement does not say anything - in your worldview. It's a tautology.Last edited by seer; 08-12-2019, 10:26 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Carp, you are importing consent into the definition. An earthly King has the right to rule whether you give you consent or not.
Originally posted by seer View PostThat is just silly Carp, who says they don't have the right to rule?
Originally posted by seer View PostIt would come down to your opinion against a King or Dictator - and in your relative world neither opinion is objectively more correct than the other.
Originally posted by seer View PostThat was not the question, does the government have the right to punish criminals who don't agree with the social contract by break the laws of the land?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat exactly is a tautology since I say that God is supremely powerful?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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