An interesting video series that addresses the subject of this thread is "Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life." I view on a paid cite and cannot advertise it here, but it is worth the watch.
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIncluding moral values, presumably. Therefore they may be both objective and subjective.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIf morals come from their god, and they are not subjective, then their god is apparently a non free willed entity.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI would agree Jim, God can not change His moral character, it is immutable, but that does not mean that He isn't free in other areas. Like whether to create or not, what to create or not, etc....
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Originally posted by seer View PostI would agree Jim, God can not change His moral character, it is immutable, but that does not mean that He isn't free in other areas. Like whether to create or not, what to create or not, etc....
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIf God "cannot change his own moral character" then he is determined by his own immutability and therefore has no more free-will than the rest of us.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe entire language "cannot change his own moral character" turns morality into an attribute of a person like skin color or gender. Moral character is a function of the mind. The language itself doesn't make any sense.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOne either has free will or he doesn't, seer. You my friend are just making stuff up to fit your agenda. Besides, if one isn't able to choose then "character" doesn't really apply to them, they have no choice!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOh Stop, of course it does. To say that God can not lie certainly makes sense.
A being who always tells the truth because they are incapable of lying is not acting morally - they are acting under compulsion.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis is a variant of the free will discussion, Seer. If you are not free to choose both moral and immoral actions, then you cannot be said to be "moral." From the perspective of morality - you are a robot unable to choose other than "the good."
A being who always tells the truth because they are incapable of lying is not acting morally - they are acting under compulsion.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, I agree God's immutable character makes it impossible for Him to do evil. Yet he can freely choose in non-moral areas.
Originally posted by seer View PostNo, he is acting according to his nature. He is His nature. There is no external compulsion. But to say, as you did, that it doesn't make sense, does not fly. There is nothing illogical about the concept.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThen he cannot properly be called a moral agent.
It doesn't make sense to attribute "moral goodness" to god when god is morally compelled. That is what makes no sense. You cannot be a moral agent if you cannot choose. Morally, you are simply a robot.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostLike I said in the past, if God acts morally (does moral things) then by definition He is a moral being.
Originally posted by seer View PostThere is nothing in the definition that requires freedom of the will, that is something you have added: A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong." https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Moral+agent
Originally posted by seer View PostWell since He is the source of goodness, and since He acts in moral ways, and since freewill is not required for the definition of moral agency, I have no problem calling him a moral agent.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs I have said several times, Seer - god cannot be a "moral being" if he is constrained to always act in a particular way (i.e., not lie). A moral agent requires freedom of will. According to your description, god's will (with respect to morality) is constrained.
Read that definition carefully, Seer - because your god (as you have described him) is "a being capable or acting with reference to right." There is no reference to wrong - leaving out half the equation.
As you wish, Seer. But then the entire argument about god and the existence of evil kind of falls apart. That argument usually takes the form, "god has to permit evil to exist because if he forced all humans to only choose good, they would cease to be true moral agents and would be merely moral robots." Here, you seem to be reversing that argument.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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