Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by kiwimac View PostDid you not bother reading?
The more important part of this definition is malice, not legality - hence malice is part of the main clause and not the add on. Further, there's a lot more to murder than a single degree.
Legal execution is not a war crime - what the Nazis did was legal - yet it was a war crime. Why? Because legality is NOT the sole determiner of murder. Had they been tried under US law, I doubt there would have been much trouble making the 1st degree criteria - malice, not legality for its own sake, is the important issue here."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo not only is your objective morality internally inconsistent, vague and interpretable, it allows slavery, genocide, lapidation, rape, polygamy, concubinage and racism; is silent on unsafe construction, stem cell use, road safety, elections, intellectual property rights and gun possession; disallows eating scampi, divorce, religious freedom, working weekends and going bare-headed in church; and demands that post-menstruation women sacrifice pigeons.
It's also not objective.
Also, you don't get to be a jerk and turn around and do exactly what you claim the other guy did.
The Source is objective - your haphazard, deliberately skewed and contextually void 'critique' does nothing to undermine that.
And before you ask, you can debate it with Sparky - looks to me like you're derailing this thread as is (he's helping) and this will be my only contribution to that derail."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat ARE those "moral and objective rules", is the question not being answered. They seem to vary from age to age according to the prevailing social mores of the day.
You can start with Exodus and Leviticus, reading the moral parts of the Law. Then you can move on to the commandments of Jesus in the NT.
Being good out of fear of punishment is the most juvenile, undeveloped level of moral development. You're putting God in the position of a scolding parent with us being no more than naughty children.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou want me to quote entire swaths of the bible for you?
You can start with Exodus and Leviticus, reading the moral parts of the Law. Then you can move on to the commandments of Jesus in the NT
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15)
"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offence." (Leviticus 20:9)
Are these an example of those "moral and objective rules" that you're talking about, why not?
Great. Tell that to God when you see him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe bible reports historical events and actions. It doesn't always approve of them. It also contains commands and information on moral behavior and sinful behavior.God created the universe and it's rules. So what he says is moral is objective and affects everyone.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOK:
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15)
"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offence." (Leviticus 20:9)
Are these an example of those "moral and objective rules" that you're talking about, why not?
That is an objective morality.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIn a way. Part of it, the punishment, capitol offense, was given to those people at a particular time, but the objective moral part is "treat your parents well" or basically "love your family"
That is an objective morality.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostAnd those commands and information on moral behaviour include that it allows slavery, genocide, lapidation, rape, polygamy, concubinage and racism; is silent on unsafe construction, stem cell use, road safety, elections, intellectual property rights and gun possession; disallows eating scampi, divorce, religious freedom, working weekends and going bare-headed in church; and demands that post-menstruation women sacrifice pigeons.Then you'd better avoid scampi, Sparko, and start buying pigeons.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat's a right impressive display of vituperative ignorance, Roy. It's also about the largest elephant hurl I've ever seen. Congratulations, I think.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIs it good to love your parents and respect them?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYes of course. But the point of an objective absolute law is that it is immutable. Once you start interpreting them and adapting them for a "particular time", to quote you, they become subjective. Interpretations can vary.
The actual LAW regarding that moral truth is not part of the moral truth itself. Every society has different ways to deal with various morals. Murder for instance. Unjustified killing is a moral evil. That is universal for all human beings for all time. Everyone agrees on that, except for those who are evil or mentally ill. But each society has different laws on what is justified or unjustified and different punishments for breaking the law. One society might behead murderers, another might expel them. Another might lock them up for life. So it is with the LAW that if you dishonor your mother and father you will be stoned. The moral truth is the same today, but today our society doesn't stone people who break that moral code. It doesn't change the moral code that honoring and loving your parents is good.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostFor your future reference, "elephant hurling" consists of claiming that there are lots of examples or masses of evidence but not identifying any.
Similar to your comment, in fact.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot that it is immutable, but that it is universally true. There can be exceptions. If your parents were serial killers and decided you would make a good breakfast, I would think it would be fine for you not to honor them, for example. But the moral value of respecting and loving your parents is a universal good. For all time. 10,000 years ago and today.
The actual LAW regarding that moral truth is not part of the moral truth itself. Every society has different ways to deal with various morals. Murder for instance. Unjustified killing is a moral evil. That is universal for all human beings for all time. Everyone agrees on that, except for those who are evil or mentally ill. But each society has different laws on what is justified or unjustified and different punishments for breaking the law. One society might behead murderers, another might expel them. Another might lock them up for life. So it is with the LAW that if you dishonor your mother and father you will be stoned. The moral truth is the same today, but today our society doesn't stone people who break that moral code. It doesn't change the moral code that honoring and loving your parents is good.
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