An infinite series of finite causes.

[seer]

There is really nothing more to be said. All we can do is agree to disagree and await developments.

Hope springs eternal...

[shunyadragon]

That I leave to ya'll to sort out. I was mostly interested in the discussion about the meaning and use of "ad hominem."

I believe the definition is clear and specific in this case. The personal attacks by element771 and seer are real and specific, not ambiguous, and the avoiding the questions and the topic of the thread is not ambiguous.

[Tassman]

Hope springs eternal...

[Tassman]

So what is your point? Christianity was far more prevalent with the Founders than Deism (as my past link showed). Your link spoke of the influence of John Locke on the Founders who was a Christian who grounded human rights in the God of scripture.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

And Washington's contemporaries also viewed him as a Christian, after all he attended Church and was an Anglican vestryman and warden. But that does not change what both Washington and Madison said - that religion was necessary to govern.

Except that is not what the courts did. There is nothing in the Constitution that says that states could not have laws against sodomy for instance, nor that they could not have school prayer. "Congress shall make no law..." A school district having voluntary teacher led prayer is not "Congress making a law." So the leftist courts invented these prohibitions.

Yes, there was a real and genuine worry of communism spreading through out the whole Asian rim.

[rogue06]

And yet, several of those who contributed essays to the The Fundamentals^[1], such as James Orr, Benjamin B. Warfield^[2] and George Frederick Wright^[3] could be described as Theistic Evolutionists.








1. Full name The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth which kick started the fundamentalist movement

2. Known as the great apologist of biblical inerrancy, Warfield described himself as a "Darwinian of the purest water" and who wrote in 1915:



3. Who wrote the essay concerning evolution, The Passing of Evolution, which distinguished between "Darwinism" (an atheistic, materialistic view of evolution pushed by folks like Huxley and Spencer) and the Theory of Evolution and where he argued that human origins required divine intervention (a view held in large part by the co-originator of the Theory of Evolution, Alfred Russel Wallace)

[Tassman]

And yet, several of those who contributed essays to the The Fundamentals^[1], such as James Orr, Benjamin B. Warfield^[2] and George Frederick Wright^[3] could be described as Theistic Evolutionists.








1. Full name The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth which kick started the fundamentalist movement

2. Known as the great apologist of biblical inerrancy, Warfield described himself as a "Darwinian of the purest water" and who wrote in 1915:



3. Who wrote the essay concerning evolution, The Passing of Evolution, which distinguished between "Darwinism" (an atheistic, materialistic view of evolution pushed by folks like Huxley and Spencer) and the Theory of Evolution and where he argued that human origins required divine intervention (a view held in large part by the co-originator of the Theory of Evolution, Alfred Russel Wallace)

[seer]

Right, you have faith that science can discover the origins of the universe.

[shunyadragon]

Right, you have faith that science can discover the origins of the universe.

Actually, it is very very unlikely that science will ever discover the ultimate origins of our physical existence (universe).

[seer]

A few points Tass, first why would the apathetic god of deism care about human rights? Second, this phrase Nature's God was borrowed from the English law scholar Blackstone, and that was a reference to the God of scripture. The point is, whether Deism or Theism the Founders did not ground human rights in the government or the majority.



What are you talking about, as I referenced the majority of Founders were Christian.


.

Of course it was an invention, a legal fiction. A school district having voluntary was not only accepted for most of our history it is not a Congress (state or federal) making a LAW. No matter how you twist it Tass, it does not work. And what does the due process have to do with state sodomy laws?



Yes and no, the west did pretty much stop international Communism. Our biggest mistake was getting into bed with France after WW2 and supporting their return to Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh' was very open to the US and democracy in those early years.

[rogue06]

I'm pointing out that even among the founders of the fundamentalist movement you would find those who accepted evolution, so don't broad brush like that.

[KingsGambit]

I'm pointing out that even among the founders of the fundamentalist movement you would find those who accepted evolution, so don't broad brush like that.

I would say the term "fundamentalism" has "evolved" in the past 125 years; notable early names were associated with leading seminaries outside of their own ranks and proudly proclaimed the names. The more ecumenically minded ones eventually adopted "evangelical". I hardly think Warfield today would associate with the term "fundamentalist".

[seer]

I would say the term "fundamentalism" has "evolved" in the past 125 years; notable early names were associated with leading seminaries outside of their own ranks and proudly proclaimed the names. The more ecumenically minded ones eventually adopted "evangelical". I hardly think Warfield today would associate with the term "fundamentalist".

Have you actually ever read Warfield? He certainly would not be "ecumenically minded."

[rogue06]

Have you actually ever read Warfield? He certainly would not be "ecumenically minded."

Yeah, he was pretty much a Calvinist's Calvinist writing in the opening paragraph of What is Calvinism?:

"Calvinism is just religion in its purity. We have only, therefore, to conceive of religion in its purity, and that is Calvinism"

[KingsGambit]

Have you actually ever read Warfield? He certainly would not be "ecumenically minded."

Ecumenical in the sense of being willing to fellowship across the Christian spectrum, not in the sense of reaching out to other faith traditions.

Kevin Bauder's contributions to the Four Views book on defining the evangelical spectrum (he was the self described fundamentalist on the panel) illuminate this sort of separatism, which he spent a lot of time defending.

Modern fundamentalists tend to eschew any religious higher education other than their own Bible colleges, whereas Warfield was associated with Princeton.

[seer]

Ecumenical in the sense of being willing to fellowship across the Christian spectrum, not in the sense of reaching out to other faith traditions.

Kevin Bauder's contributions to the Four Views book on defining the evangelical spectrum (he was the self described fundamentalist on the panel) illuminate this sort of separatism, which he spent a lot of time defending.

Modern fundamentalists tend to eschew any religious higher education other than their own Bible colleges, whereas Warfield was associated with Princeton.

Princeton was a much different place back then. Warfield was a hard core Calvinist...