Originally posted by shunyadragon
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
New member question about philosophy
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post(1) It has been demonstrated that an infinite series of causes is possible. Actual infinities are a complete closed set and possible and used in physics to describe possible attributes of black holes. Our physical existence is possibly potentially infinite without regard to any actual infinity.
(2) The physical existence is possibly uncaused in and of itself as possibly eternal. and natural laws are possibly eternal.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by Darfius View PostThat an infinite series of causes is impossible is not an assumption. An infinite series of causes would require an infinite series of events. Another way of stating an infinite series of events would be infinite finiteness. It's meaningless gibberish.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostAn infinite series of causes with no first cause is metaphysical argument. And from a metaphysical point of view cannot be disproven to be a physical possibility. Expand collapse rebound expand with no beginning of the series. If that is what has always happened, it is beyond our current understanding of physics.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Darfius View PostYou're not understanding. I'm not sure what a "metaphysical argument" is, but logically, an infinite finite cannot exist. Just as a yes no cannot exist or a black white. It's either/or. Pretty simple to grasp, but as I said, some people who hate God like to pretend otherwise. "Well maybe we don't need logic if it means I can avoid God." Sorry, kiddo, facts don't care about your feelings. (That last part is to the "atheists", 37818, not you).
Logically an infinite series can exist. They do exist mathematically. Show the logic where an infinite series of causes cannot exist. It is a metaphysical argument. [Theologically our heaven and earth has a unique beginning. Genesis 1:1. And such an infinite past is not in evidence. If it were in evidence John 1:3 would cover it.]. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThank you. Metaphysical is beyond physical empirical testing.
Logically an infinite series can exist. They do exist mathematically. Show the logic where an infinite series of causes cannot exist. It is a metaphysical argument. [Theologically our heaven and earth has a unique beginning. Genesis 1:1. And such an infinite past is not in evidence. If it were in evidence John 1:3 would cover it.]
Comment
-
Originally posted by Darfius View PostI know what metaphysical means, but an argument is either sound or not, not "metaphysical" or not. Infinities can exist in mathematics precisely because neither time nor space is involved. The infinite cannot be bound into a "series" like a chain of cause and effect would represent.
Now God could either have made an infinite set of creations or one unique one. The latter is in evidence. For us that is settled. [Issue: God always has created, there being no first creation (having never changed in that way). Or God never created, then did, causing a beginning of created things (changing from not creating anything to creating all created things.]
What is not settled is that an infinite series of causes with no first cause is impossible. There is no logical reason that can not be possible. [except for the fact that seems not to be the case.]. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou are merely asserting that an infinite series of causes are not possible. You have provided no sound argument that that is so [not possible].
Now God could either have made an infinite set of creations or one unique one. The latter is in evidence. For us that is settled. [Issue: God always has created, there being no first creation (having never changed in that way). Or God never created, then did, causing a beginning of created things (changing from not creating anything to creating all created things.]
What is not settled is that an infinite series of causes with no first cause is impossible. There is no logical reason that can not be possible. [except for the fact that seems not to be the case.]
Comment
-
Originally posted by Darfius View PostI have provided the argument, you just don't understand it. Infinite and finite are mutually exclusive terms. There cannot be an infinity of finites for the same reason there can't be a yes no or a black white. It's either/or.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes. Finite and infinite are indeed mutually exclusive terms. From an infinite past (no beginning) would require infinite finite causes. There would have been no first finite cause. All causes are finite. Your argument that infinite finite causes cannot have taken place for the same reason black cannot be white at the same time is a non sequitur. The series of causes do not take place at the same time. They are a sequence of causes. Only a current effect would be present at any one time.
Comment
-
I hate to do it but I agree with Darfius on this. You can't have an infinite series of causes and effects.
From William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument, discussing an infinite series:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...ical-argument/
Comment
-
Originally posted by Darfius View PostThat post you linked to didn't debunk anything, even where it was coherent. First he calls cause and effect "intuition" rather than the foundation of all logic. Fail.
Originally posted by Darfius View PostThen he says you "can't create the material from the immaterial", but that begs the question.
Originally posted by Darfius View PostThe strength of the argument is that the material universe requires a personal Cause precisely to explain the ontological gap between the material and the immaterial. In other words, since all matter had a beginning point, what preceded that beginning point must have been immaterial, but personal so as to choose an effect ontologically different from itself.
Originally posted by Darfius View PostThen he tries to mumble about multiverses, but that only removes the problem of infinite regression a step back and doesn't solve it.
Originally posted by Darfius View PostSo the reason the argument proves the God of the Bible rather than any other god is because the Cause must be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, immaterial and personal. In other words, He must be perfect. The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't perfect.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe two assumptions the KCA makes: 1) An infinite series of causes to be impossible. 2) The then necessary first cause, uncaused cause to have the identity of God.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThank you. Metaphysical is beyond physical empirical testing.
Logically an infinite series can exist. They do exist mathematically. Show the logic where an infinite series of causes cannot exist. It is a metaphysical argument. [Theologically our heaven and earth has a unique beginning. Genesis 1:1. And such an infinite past is not in evidence. If it were in evidence John 1:3 would cover it.]The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment