Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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An Infinite Past?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostInflation/multiverse theory may be shown to be fundamentally flawed, just as the predicted Higgs Boson may have been shown to be flawed. But there were solid reasons for predicting its existence just as there are good reasons for predicting the whole inflation/multiverse scenario. These theories are not just pulled out of a hat. Merely digging up links which raise questions about it does not alter the fact that the overall direction of cosmology is inflationary/multiverse theory. And for good reason!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostInflation/multiverse theory may be shown to be fundamentally flawed, just as the predicted Higgs Boson may have been shown to be flawed. But there were solid reasons for predicting its existence just as there are good reasons for predicting the whole inflation/multiverse scenario. These theories are not just pulled out of a hat. Merely digging up links which raise questions about it does not alter the fact that the overall direction of cosmology is inflationary/multiverse theory. And for good reason!
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Originally posted by seer View PostSure Tass, but the proof is in the pudding. As Steinhardt shows in the link there are very good reasons to doubt inflation theory. That it doesn't or can't explain what we see in this universe. And Steinhardt is no novice in this game, he was one of the original fathers of inflation theory. And just because a theory is popular doesn't make it right, Steinhardt makes this point in the link, that most cosmologists really don't even understand inflation theory. And if you are a materialist you want there to be a physical explanation for this universe, you are bias towards that end.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostVery good explanation! There remains the poor understanding by layman of the limits of models and theorems involving the nature of our physical existence beyond our universe, but yes the current overall direction of cosmology is inflationary?/multiverse. I consider the timeless/dimensionless multiverse a good candidate.
The idea is so compelling that cosmologists, including me, routinely describe it to students, journalists and the public as an established fact. Yet something peculiar has happened to inflationary theory in the 30 years since Guth introduced it. As the case for inflation has grown stronger, so has the case against. The two cases are not equally well known: the evidence favoring inflation is familiar to a broad range of physicists, astrophysicists and science aficionados. Surprisingly few seem to follow the case against inflation except for a small group of us who have been quietly striving to address the challenges. Most astrophysicists have gone about their business testing the predictions of textbook inflationary theory without worrying about these deeper issues, hoping they would eventually be resolved. Unfortunately, the problems have resisted our best efforts to date.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere is no doubt of a physical explanation for the universe, including Steinhardt’s. The only question is which one.
Still no evidence...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd you Shuny know more about this than Dr. Steinhardt one of the fathers of inflationary theory? To quote:
The idea is so compelling that cosmologists, including me, routinely describe it to students, journalists and the public as an established fact. Yet something peculiar has happened to inflationary theory in the 30 years since Guth introduced it. As the case for inflation has grown stronger, so has the case against. The two cases are not equally well known: the evidence favoring inflation is familiar to a broad range of physicists, astrophysicists and science aficionados. Surprisingly few seem to follow the case against inflation except for a small group of us who have been quietly striving to address the challenges. Most astrophysicists have gone about their business testing the predictions of textbook inflationary theory without worrying about these deeper issues, hoping they would eventually be resolved. Unfortunately, the problems have resisted our best efforts to date.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhere does mu view differ from that od Dr. Steinhardt. What you cited is ok, but not complete. I agreed that the inflationary/multiverse is the current most widely accepted view of our physical existence. Are you intimating the Dr. Steinhardt does not support the multiverse concept?
The idea is so compelling that cosmologists, including me, routinely describe it to students, journalists and the public as an established fact. Yet something peculiar has happened to inflationary theory in the 30 years since Guth introduced it. As the case for inflation has grown stronger, so has the case against. The two cases are not equally well known: the evidence favoring inflation is familiar to a broad range of physicists, astrophysicists and science aficionados. Surprisingly few seem to follow the case against inflation except for a small group of us who have been quietly striving to address the challenges. Most astrophysicists have gone about their business testing the predictions of textbook inflationary theory without worrying about these deeper issues, hoping they would eventually be resolved. Unfortunately, the problems have resisted our best efforts to date.
The Abyss of Infinity
Inflation is known for making precise predictions that have been confirmed by observations. But does it really? Once inflation starts, quantum jittering keeps it going in the bulk of space.Where it does end, a bubble nucleates and grows. We live in such a bubble, but it is atypical; most are younger. In fact, an infinite number of bubbles form with an infinite variety of properties. Everything that can happen does happen in some bubble. A theory that predicts everything predicts nothing.Last edited by seer; 08-14-2014, 07:00 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes Steinhardt does not support the multiverse, read the link:
He explains this more in the link, see The perils of eternal inflation.
In fact I am very much in agreement with Dr. Steinhardt.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-14-2014, 07:19 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNothing here rejects the possibility of a 'multiverse.' I have no problem with various models and theorems involving 'inflation,' but to support your argument you need to cite Dr. Steinhardt specifically where her rejects the possibility of a multiverse. The following does describe the potential of a multiverse, but yet, of course, Dr. Steinhardt questions over reaching conclusions concerning models and theorems concerning the nature of our physical existence based on our present knowledge.
In fact I am very much in agreement with Dr. Steinhardt.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou agree with what? He is saying that it is nonsense, i.e. concept of the multiverse. Did you even bother to read the perils of eternal inflation section?
In the history of modern science their is the quest for the theory that explains everything, particularly Einstein. In the above he warns and questions over stating these objectives and claims.
What you have to do is cite Dr. Steinhardt where he proposes that the multiverse concept is not a possibility. Still waiting . . .
You fail to realize that the models and theorems currently proposed and being developed consider 'multiverse' concepts as possibilities. It has never been claimed that there is proof that 'multiverses' exist.
I do not know of any physicists and cosmologists who reject the 'possibility' that multiverses exist, including Dr. Steinhardt.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-14-2014, 08:29 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSeer, he is not saying that. He is describing possibilities of origins, and warning not to overstate the conclusions of the theorems and models of these origins. Again, please cite where Dr. Steinhardt rejects the possibility that multiverses exist.
In the history of modern science their is the quest for the theory that explains everything, particularly Einstein. In the above he warns and questions over stating these objectives and claims.
What you have to do is cite Dr. Steinhardt where he proposes that the multiverse concept is not a possibility. Still waiting . . .
You fail to realize that the models and theorems currently proposed and being developed consider 'multiverse' concepts as possibilities. It has never been claimed that there is proof that 'multiverses' exist.
I do not know of any physicists and cosmologists who reject the 'possibility' that multiverses exist, including Dr. Steinhardt.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat are you taking about Shuny, he is not saying that a multiverse can't exist but that the concept is nonsensical. Did you even read the Perils of Inflation section?
In this article Dr. Steinhardt is discussing the problems with different inflation models, and in no way rejecting the multiverse models. He does conclude there remains unanswered problems with all inflation models including what is proposed by Vilenkin in the BVG theorem. Please not the conclusions at the end of his article.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-14-2014, 04:40 PM.
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seer
You need to read mor of Dr. Steinhardt's work to fully understand his views on cosmology. He actually supports the possibility of a version of a cyclic cosmology for our universe, which would not be a contemporary inflation model.
This is an example of where your selective reading of scientists gets you into trouble. Your jumping around selectively quoting Vilenkin to support an inflation universe or multiverse with a beginning, and infinite inflation, to Dr. Steinhardt, who questions the inflation models as inadequate, and proposes a possible cyclic universe that is possibly past and future infinite.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-14-2014, 04:15 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo doubt Tass? Where is the evidence for your belief?
Still no evidence...Last edited by Tassman; 08-15-2014, 12:56 AM.
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