An Infinite Past?

[JimL]

That is not what I asked Shuny. You said: In reality no one of any world view believes that life is worthless.Well obviously there are people, and groups who do believe that the lives of others are worthless.

Not to mention your conception of God who annihilites, or according to the bible, eternally tortures people for their imperfections.

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense Shuny, and science has not gone from particulars to universal. Since science can not know what happens in every corner of the universe. For that to happen human beings must have complete and universal knowledge of the entire universe -absolute knowledge. You can never know if the law of non-contradiction hold everywhere.

You are conflating two different concepts of knowledge. Absolute knowledge of existence which in my view is the nature of God's knowledge only, and the ability of science to apply the Law of non-contradiction, uniformity and consistency of our physical existence as justification of scientific knowledge. This is how science works as using the evidence of particulars to develop theories and hypothesis that justify the knowledge of universals. This in no way a claim of absolute knowledge of universals, which again is the knowledge of God only.

Good so you agree that you are science are only assuming that law of non-contradiction holds universally. Thanks...

What is wrong with that assumption of the theories and hypothesis of science from the human perspective? It works and it is justified as the basis of scientific knowledge of the nature of our physical existence. It has done well that ever possible corner of our physical existence that scientific methods have objectively tested is uniform and consistent in the past, present and future.

Your conflating what it is to 'absolutely know,' and knowledge from the human perspective. Yes science has justification for assuming the Law of non-contradiction, uniformity and consistency applies to our physical existence, whithout absolute knowledge.

From my theist belief, our physical existence is indeed consistent and uniform universally. I do not believe God is a trickster to make the appearance of evidence that would be in contradiction with the Law of non-contradiction concerning the nature of our physical existence in the past, present, future and unseen parts of our physical existence. There is no need for a special belief in anything for any human make these assumptions.

[37818]

Not to mention your conception of God who annihilites, or according to the bible, eternally tortures people for their imperfections.

Hi JimL, have you not read? ". . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. . . . " -- Ezekiel 18:32. And that, ". . . he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: . . . " -- Revelation 14:10. And therefore: ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9. The human condition being, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . . " -- Romans 3:11. see also 2 Corinthians 3:3, 4. Acts 26:18. And that God really wants are to have men (Titus 1:2; Titus 2:11) to come willingly to Him. But one has to believe the message/the writings are really from God (John 6:45; John 7:17). God offers full and complete forgiveness (Jeremiah 31:34; 1 John 2:2).

[shunyadragon]

Hi JimL, have you not read? ". . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. . . . " -- Ezekiel 18:32. And that, ". . . he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: . . . " -- Revelation 14:10. And therefore: ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9. The human condition being, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . . " -- Romans 3:11. see also 2 Corinthians 3:3, 4. Acts 26:18. And that God really wants are to have men (Titus 1:2; Titus 2:11) to come willingly to Him. But one has to believe the message/the writings are really from God (John 6:45; John 7:17). God offers full and complete forgiveness (Jeremiah 31:34; 1 John 2:2).

Your limited selection of citations from the Bible do not reflect reality.

[seer]

Actually no. the value of ones own purpose and life that of their immediate family and community value in life is the issue. All people of all cultures value life.

Yes, most people hold their own lives precious - but someone may come around with a different opinion. Like the Hutu with the Tutsi (they were in the same community BTW). The question then becomes - whose opinion is correct - The Tutsi who value their lives or the Hutu who don't value the lives of the Tutsi? In a godless, indifferent universe there is no answer - nor can there be. No opinion is more correct than its opposite. But Shuny, you and I don't believe that - since we both believe that man has objective worth, being created in the image of God. Correct?

[seer]

You are conflating two different concepts of knowledge. Absolute knowledge of existence which in my view is the nature of God's knowledge only, and the ability of science to apply the Law of non-contradiction, uniformity and consistency of our physical existence as justification of scientific knowledge. This is how science works as using the evidence of particulars to develop theories and hypothesis that justify the knowledge of universals. This in no way a claim of absolute knowledge of universals, which again is the knowledge of God only.

Good so we agree that only God can actually know universals. Isn't that what Mr. Black has been saying?

[seer]

Not to mention your conception of God who annihilites, or according to the bible, eternally tortures people for their imperfections.

Well yes Jim, our choices in the Christian worldview are infinitely (literally) more significant. And God does not "torture" people for imperfections, He judges them for their sin and rebellion - the most serious of these is unbelief. Because with unbelief you finally separate yourself from the only source of everlasting life. That however does not change the fact that ontologically we are God's image bearers with objective worth. And no other man, no matter his opinion on the value of your life, can change that.

[shunyadragon]

Good so we agree that only God can actually know universals. Isn't that what Mr. Black has been saying?

No, Mr. Black believes only believers of the Christian worldview have any logical and rational justification and knowledge of God's Creation. All other world views are irrational and have absolutely no justification and knowledge of God's Creation.

This basically at the foundation of the presuppositional Transcendental belief as in Mr. Black's Calvinist Fundamentalist view.

[JimL]

Well yes Jim, our choices in the Christian worldview are infinitely (literally) more significant. And God does not "torture" people for imperfections, He judges them for their sin and rebellion - the most serious of these is unbelief. Because with unbelief you finally separate yourself from the only source of everlasting life. That however does not change the fact that ontologically we are God's image bearers with objective worth. And no other man, no matter his opinion on the value of your life, can change that.

Seer, there is a big gaping hole in your argument which you are failing to see. Unless morals are objective in themselves, which according to your argument they are not, then they are subjective. Unless what is good and what is evil are good and evil regardless of any source that determines whether or not they are good or evil, then they are not objectively good or evil. So you need first to define your terms before you can make a legitimate argument concerning them. Define what you mean by good, define what you mean by evil, define what you mean by morality, and then explain with respect to those definitions in what sense they are objective?
For instance, is murder, rape, theft, etc. etc. wrong in and of themselves, or are they wrong simply because a God determines them to be wrong?

[37818]

Your limited selection of citations from the Bible do not reflect reality.

Really? Please give one example from my citations for which you argue this. The citation in and of itself must contradict a known fact of reality.

[37818]

Seer, there is a big gaping hole in your argument which you are failing to see. Unless morals are objective in themselves, which according to your argument they are not, then they are subjective. . . .

I didn't perceive subjective morality being argued by seer, only by you. Morality is an objective reality. Our human understandings of it may be both limited and subjective.

[shunyadragon]

I didn't perceive subjective morality being argued by seer, only by you. Morality is an objective reality. Our human understandings of it may be both limited and subjective.

Source: http://whatisitwithjesus.blogspot.com/2007/11/ethnic-cleansing-in-bible.html

Ethnic cleansing in the Bible

Num 1 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Now that must have been a scene to witness! The Israelites slaughtering the Midianites (ok, that's what people do in wars ...) but then taking the captured women and children back to the camp only to then massacre most of them. I'd be for turning this episode into a Bible movie too! But 'Passion of the Christ' like! Bloody, gory, violent! Show us the Israelites slitting the throats of the Medianite boys and women in close-up. Show us the butchers wading through the streams of blood. Show us the Israelites raping the Medianite virgins. Let us hear their crying and moaning! And all of this in the name of the LORD!

© Copyright Original Source

[JimL]

I didn't perceive subjective morality being argued by seer, only by you. Morality is an objective reality. Our human understandings of it may be both limited and subjective.

You are missing the point. Seer is arguing that morality is objective, but in order for morality to be objective it must be so in its own right, not because it is determined to be so by a deity. Therefore, in order for his argument, and apparently yours, to hold water, you both need to define exactly what you mean by the terms "good and evil," and why with regards to those definitions you understand them to be objective.
In other words if the act of murder is in and of itself objectively wrong, then you need to explain, without invoking God, why murder is in and of itself objectively wrong.

[Tassman]

Source: http://whatisitwithjesus.blogspot.com/2007/11/ethnic-cleansing-in-bible.html

Ethnic cleansing in the Bible

Num 1 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Now that must have been a scene to witness! The Israelites slaughtering the Midianites (ok, that's what people do in wars ...) but then taking the captured women and children back to the camp only to then massacre most of them. I'd be for turning this episode into a Bible movie too! But 'Passion of the Christ' like! Bloody, gory, violent! Show us the Israelites slitting the throats of the Medianite boys and women in close-up. Show us the butchers wading through the streams of blood. Show us the Israelites raping the Medianite virgins. Let us hear their crying and moaning! And all of this in the name of the LORD!

© Copyright Original Source

Indeed!

And yet more objective morality from scripture:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests: Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Death to Followers of Other Religions: Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19,20)

Kill Nonbelievers: They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God: Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Followers of Other Religions: 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Where would we be without this objective moral code so thoughtfully provided by seer's loving deity to guide us into right and wrong? <sarcasm> Or could it be that our values have developed and changed over time and that what was once acceptable in the more primitive tribal era is no longer acceptable in our more enlightened age?

[Tassman]

I didn't perceive subjective morality being argued by seer, only by you. Morality is an objective reality. Our human understandings of it may be both limited and subjective.

Really! Then what's the point of this alleged "objective moral reality" if our only understanding of it is "limited and subjective"? The end result is subjective morality.