Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Teleology And Human Ethics...
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSeer, there is no reason how or why an eternal being exists, nor is there a reason how or why an eternal universe exists. Thats basically the point I've been making. Your wanting for there to be a reason and purpose for your existence, is not a good reason for believing there is a reason and purpose for your existence.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight and that is why Charlie's question is irrational. And just because I want a reason or purpose for life doesn't mean there isn't one. After all belief in the otherworldly seems to be the default position for mankind. Atheism is clearly abnormal.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostDefault position or not, your argument is irrelevant with respect to what is real or not. Just because you want there to be a reason or purpose for your existence is not a legitimate reason, i.e. a reason based on logic, to believe there is a purpose either. Btw, the majority of the people in the world are not Christians, shall I conclude from that fact alone that christianity is abnormal?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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The belief in a Divine reason and purpose for you and I is a question of belief and not based on 'objective verifiable evidence. If it were a good argument based on evidence it would have merit. Nonetheless the natural explanation based on the objective verifiable evidence is more than adequate to describe the purpose and reason of natural processes behind the nature of our physical existence and evolution by definition you provided.
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Only from the perspective of defending Methodological Naturalism, and NOT Philosophical Naturalism. The problem is that when it comes to science, the Traditional Christian arguments are most often inconsistent, bad science, and even more often genuinely terrible. Actually, the atheists, and the agnostics at least get their science right.
You use the same circular reasoning intrinsic to all such arguments:
1. Truth is only found in objective, empirically testable theories.
2. A system of belief must be true; a false system of belief is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
3. Theism is not an empirically testable system of belief.
4. Therefore, theism has no justification as a true system of belief.
5. Naturalism is based on strong empirical evidences and has a firm warrant for truth.
6. Therefore naturalism has justification as a true system of belief.
1. [Knowledge of our physical existence; ie science] is only found in objective, empirically testable theories [and hypothesis].
2. A system of belief must be coherent and compatible beyond the claimed foundation of ancient scripture. Traditional Theists such as Jews, Christians and Muslims, are grounded in the belief that there scripture was in some way Divinely revealed or confirmed as is. In reality the ancient texts such as Genesis and Exodus are based on ancient mythology and without known authors.
3. Theism is not an empirically testable system of belief. True!
4. <delete> Fallible humans are not capable of comprehending absolute truths.
5. [Methodological] Naturalism is based on strong empirical evidences and has a firm warrant for [the knowledge of our physical existence.]
6. Therefore naturalism has justification as a true system of belief.
So your , being circular in nature, seems not to have much merit itself.
vBoth naturalism and theism are at root systems of belief.
A much too an idealistic expectation to be real.
Vague, not answerable.
I am TE, scientist, and yes I believe God Created everything. No the evolutionary model does not disprove God. It just demonstrates that the ancient Theist views, are based on ancient mythology are poorly grounded in reality.
And given advances in quantum physics, naturalism, at least its mechanistic aspect, is starting to look shaky anyway.
Vague challenges of 'shaky' as far as our Physics is concerned are based on 'shaky' arguments from ignorance.
What is terribly 'shaky' is the belief in the reliability of ancient scripture like Genesis, which are grounded more in mythology. This is becoming more apparent as time passes.Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-05-2017, 10:33 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour missing the 'or,' which is not an 'and.'Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat? Did the laws of nature have a reason or purpose for creating life or not?
Creation is theological/philosophical belief. From the scientific perspective laws of nature and natural processes do not Create anything. Cause and effect outcomes and 'things' are a result of natural law and natural processes.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe reason is life is a natural result of the laws of nature that caused the nature of our physical existence as it is, the purpose is all cause and effect events in our physical universe happen only within the limits of the laws of nature and natural processes.
From the scientific perspective laws of nature and natural processes do not Create anything. Cause and effect outcomes and 'things' are a result of natural law and natural processes.
So natural forces did create something new into existence, life.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Science based on objective verifiable evidence is not circular.3. Theism is not an empirically testable system of belief. True!A much too an idealistic expectation to be real.
Vague challenges of 'shaky' as far as our Physics is concerned are based on 'shaky' arguments from ignorance.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYour first part is correct, like I already said, the second part is not. There is no purpose, by definition, in cause and effect.
Create:to make or bring into existence something new, bring (something) into existence
So natural forces did create something new into existence, life.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe natural forces, if you want to put it that way, creates new things from out of itself, not new things from out of nothing. The cause is in the effect, and the effect is in the cause. But, if everything is one in the same thing, in its many different forms, then cause and effect is just a way of talking, it isn't really a fundemental description of reality. The universe just is, it simply changes according to its own nature.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell you can call it what you want, but creation is usually thought of as the product of a mind. A better term, I would suggest, is that it evolves.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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