Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Teleology And Human Ethics...
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Charles View PostIf God has no reason to have those purposes, goals or aims then they have no foundation and do not establish anything other than just choice. If you cannot give a reason then we are back to the just making statements approach. And if you have given up when it comes to providing reasons then you are right that asking for reasons is stupid.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny, you said that was a purpose to our existence - there isn't if naturalism is true - period.
Theistic 'ultimate purpose,' reason and intent remains a question of belief, and cannot be justified by the objective verifiable evidence.
You, of course, consider there are no alternative explanations for the nature of our physical existence, life and evolution, but that is a rather unrealistic egocentric view and not supported by objective verifiable evidence.Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-05-2017, 07:48 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAh . . . no, you are misrepresenting me. By the definitions of purpose and reason, for the nature of our physical existence has purpose and reason based on Natural Law, and natural processes. There. of course is no anthropomorphic intent, by definition in the purpose and reason from the scientific perspective. The definitions provided describe creation as an option for purpose, but not the only reason for a purpose. I have previously explained this by the definitions provided. Please cite me properly and completely and do not misrepresent me as you usually do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim, God just is, there can be no other answer. You believe that matter and energy are past eternal - what is their purpose?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThats my point seer, if god can just be, existing for no particular reason, with no intended purpose, then so can the universe and you just be. You presuppose intent and purpose because you want there to be ultimate intent and purpose in your life, but as you can see, just as an uncreated god would have no ultimate intention or purpose for his existence, neither would an uncreated universe. Wanting existence to be a certain way is not a reason that it has to be that way.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAs defined purpose requires intent.
You can say that evolution is the reason why developed as we did, but there is no purpose in that. Evolution does not purpose one species to survive and another to go extinct. It is a blind purposeless process.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is blind to intent, but not purpose and reason by definition. As a noun there is no necessary intent for a purpose,
the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
"the purpose of the meeting is to appoint a trustee"Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim, I'm not arguing that the universe can't just be, only that there would be no ultimate purpose for humankind.
And God would not need some external reason or purpose for His existence to create us with a purpose and value.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, and that argument, though true, has nothing to do with whether or not the universe was created.
You,re missing the point seer, its not whether or not an uncreated god is able to create something with intention, purpose and value, the problem is that an uncreated god would himself have no ultimate intended purpose or value. If god can exist without any ultimate intended purpose, then so could an uncreated universe exist without any intended purpose. Your not being happy with that situation is not good reason that it must be otherwise.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOK
Of course the universe could exist without a purpose, but this thread is about human teleology and ethics.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, and your point seeming to be that unless we were created and designed for a purpose, then our morals have no purpose. That doesn't make sense. Morals serve our purpose, our interests, not the interests of a creator.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Jim, what I'm saying is that there would be no correct way to live, morally.
If you mean what behaviors might be good for yourself alone in the short term, then obviously there would be no correct way, but morality isn't about the good of you alone, its about the good of you as part of a larger community.
Like you said, nothing is really evil, therefore nothing is really good either. You would say that what serves the greater good is good, but why is our very survival a good? If you could get away with taking advantage of you fellow man to feather your own bed then that is a good for you.Last edited by JimL; 10-05-2017, 02:13 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostJust making statements? Like your fictional objective ethics? But again, you are asking an inane question. Is God supposed to have some external purpose? How would one divine a purpose for an uncreated being? What would that even look like?
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Originally posted by Charles View PostWhat this all shows is that you, as usual, have got no answer. You are just moving the problem one step further away. You want to base purpose on God but you cannot show how that establishes purpose, you have simply got nothing to say in favour of why and how. It is a skin explanation. It is like explaining the universe by claiming it was created by god and then being unable to explain why or how god exists. So, basically, you are not explaining anything but trying to cover the question up in dogma making it seem as if it is irelevant or stupid while the real problem is that you simply cannot answer it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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