Teleology And Human Ethics...

[seer]

reallyhttp://inference-review.com/article/...f-the-universe

Right like I have been saying, creation ex nihilo does not necessarily prove God or disprove God as Vilenkin states, but what Vilenkin is suggesting is creation ex nihilo, creation out of nothing (no prior time, space or matter) the only preexisting thing necessary are the laws of physics (in the Platonic sense). Very close to what theology has been teaching for centuries.

[Tassman]

Right like I have been saying, creation ex nihilo does not necessarily prove God or disprove God as Vilenkin states, but what Vilenkin is suggesting is creation ex nihilo, creation out of nothing (no prior time, space or matter) the only preexisting thing necessary are the laws of physics (in the Platonic sense). Very close to what theology has been teaching for centuries.

[seer]

Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a cause

[Tassman]

Modern physics can describe the emergence of the universe as a physical process that does not require a causeSounds like a miracle to me...

It would...to you.

Physicists have shown that in quantum mechanics it is possible for a single event to be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

[seer]

It would...to you.

Physicists have shown that in quantum mechanics it is possible for a single event to be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

And you think that makes sense? Here is the bottom line. The greeks said the universe was eternal, science said the universe was in a steady state (eternal) - the Hebrews said the universe had a beginning, who was right. And now science is moving towards creation out of nothing (no preexisting time, space or matter) - literally creation ex nihilo.

To quote Robert Jastrow, astronomer, planetary physicist and NASA scientist,:

For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries

[Tassman]

And you think that makes sense? Here is the bottom line.

No it doesn't "make sense" to the intuitive mind, but quantum mechanics is famously counter-intuitive. This has been your mistake along. The "bottom line" is that quantum mechanics wreaks havoc with conventional ideas of causality.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...ocal-causality

[seer]

No it doesn't "make sense" to the intuitive mind, but quantum mechanics is famously counter-intuitive. This has been your mistake along. The "bottom line" is that quantum mechanics wreaks havoc with conventional ideas of causality.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...ocal-causality

Let me quote from your link:

Without cause and effect, science would be impossible. You could never use an observation to deduce anything about the underlying mechanism that caused it

So either you believe science is impossible, since cause and effect is necessary, or the bottom line is that we really don't fully understand quantum mechanics. That there is a deeper cause and effect scenario that we just don't get yet. Or it's magic or perhaps supernatural.

"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Richard Feynman, The Character of Physical Law (MIT Press: Cambridge, Massachusetts)

[Charles]

People can follow my links to Vilenkin's works. Shuny you are being completely dishonest, please stop posting in this thread.

This has got to stop somewhere... Seer, it is not very convincing to just see you ask people with whom you disagree to leave the thread. You may get away with it, but it is rather weak. Are your arguments really that bad?

[Tassman]

Let me quote from your link:

So either you believe science is impossible, since cause and effect is necessary, or the bottom line is that we really don't fully understand quantum mechanics.

That there is a deeper cause and effect scenario that we just don't get yet. Or it's magic or perhaps supernatural.

Sigh!

"Therefore God". As always you fall back on an Argument from Ignorance

[JimL]

Let me quote from your link:



So either you believe science is impossible, since cause and effect is necessary, or the bottom line is that we really don't fully understand quantum mechanics. That there is a deeper cause and effect scenario that we just don't get yet. Or it's magic or perhaps supernatural.

Cause and effect is how our minds perceive change in the world, but according to quantum mechanics the future state of the universe, and therefore the future state of any part of the universe, is simply determined by the present state of the universe. So the deeper cause and effect scenario is simply the deterministic nature of the whole of the universe from its present state to its next or future state.

[seer]

Tass, do you believe that things pop into existence without a cause?

[Tassman]

Tass, do you believe that things pop into existence without a cause?

Particle physics allows for this.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...particles-rea/

Physicists have shown that in quantum mechanics it is possible for a single event to be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

[seer]

Particle physics allows for this.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...particles-rea/

Physicists have shown that in quantum mechanics it is possible for a single event to be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

Tass, you really did not answer the question, do you really believe that things pop into existence without a cause?

[Tassman]

Tass, you really did not answer the question, do you really believe that things pop into existence without a cause?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...particles-rea/

[seer]

How are thing popping into existence without a cause really any different than a miracle?