Teleology And Human Ethics...

[seer]

If all the conserved numbers of a closed universe are equal to zero, then there is nothing to prevent such a universe from being spontaneously created out of nothing. And according to quantum mechanics, any process which is not strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen with some probability.

You are making my point Tass:

"If all the conserved numbers of a closed universe are equal to zero, then there is nothing to prevent such a universe from being spontaneously created out of nothing. And according to quantum mechanics, any process which is not strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen with some probability."

Out of nothing, that is the exact definition of ex nihilo.

[shunyadragon]

That is false Shuny, Vilenkin is not saying that there is a pre existing quantum nothing that natural laws are acting on, just the opposite, that nothing is the quantum vacuum and that only comes into existence after his creation event, there is no preexisting space or energy. Again, start at 4:50 it is perfectly clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSESZR3wC8s&t=184s

And again, Vilenkin:



The only thing that is required are the laws of physics - and if you think your quantum nothing pre exists the creation of the universe please tell me where such a thing exists without SPACE? But it is obvious Shuny, you have a religious agenda to defend - you need eternal matter and energy because that is what your faith teaches.

The problem is that this Quantum nothing prior to the existence of matter, space and time is described as something as pretty much supported by all the prominent physicists and cosmologists, and they agree. You seem to arguing,"How could this be?", which is a hypothetical question of false 'arguing from ignorance,' does not reflect what Vilenkin, Guth, Krauss, Hawking, and others, believe is supported by science, and who all agree based on sound Quantum Mechanics science. All pretty much agree that there is no other cause, such as God, is necessary other than the Natural Laws.

What my faith teaches concerning the eternal nature of our physical existence is simply what my faith teaches, and I have said repeatedly science is not capable of determining whether our physical existence is eternal or not. I have no dog in this fight, and I simply accept science as science, and not confirming my religious belief.

[seer]

The problem is that this Quantum nothing prior to the existence of matter, space and time is described as something as pretty much supported by all the prominent physicists and cosmologists, and they agree. You seem to arguing,"How could this be?", which is a hypothetical question of false 'arguing from ignorance,' does not reflect what Vilenkin, Guth, Krauss, Hawking, and others, believe is supported by science, and who all agree based on sound Quantum Mechanics science. All pretty much agree that there is no other cause, such as God, is necessary other than the Natural Laws.

No Shuny, Vilenkin does not say that the quantum vacuum (your nothing) exists prior to the creation event. Just the opposite in the YouTube link. The vacuum comes after the event. The only prior condition necessary is the laws of physics - that is exactly what Vilenkin says in the video and the text I linked. I know you don't like that because it upsets your religious agenda. And they have no idea if God is necessary or not since they have no idea how something could actually pop up from a condition of "no space." What popped up? Where did it exist before it popped up?

[shunyadragon]

No Shuny, Vilenkin does not say that the quantum vacuum (your nothing) exists prior to the creation event. Just the opposite in the YouTube link. The vacuum comes after the event. The only prior condition necessary is the laws of physics - that is exactly what Vilenkin says in the video and the text I linked. I know you don't like that because it upsets your religious agenda. And they have no idea if God is necessary or not since they have no idea how something could actually pop up from a condition of "no space." What popped up? Where did it exist before it popped up?

You are selectively misrepresenting Vilenkin as usual. They (the physicists and cosmologists) openly propose that science has an adequate explanation for the nature of our physical existence and the origin of our universe, and the existence of God is not necessary for the origins of our physical existence.

What popped up according to Vilenkin? The universe.

[seer]

You are selectively misrepresenting Vilenkin as usual. They (the physicists and cosmologists) openly propose that science has an adequate explanation for the nature of our physical existence and the origin of our universe, and the existence of God is not necessary for the origins of our physical existence.

What popped up according to Vilenkin? The universe.

From a condition where no space pre existed? Where exactly is that? Heaven? The spirit world? The fact is Shuny the laws of physics had to exist prior to creation according to Vilenkin. Where do non-physical principles like the laws of physics exist? He says we just don't know - it is a "great mystery." Well I'll tell where they logically could exist - the mind of God. And stop lying about me. I misrepresented nothing.

[Tassman]

You are making my point Tass:

"If all the conserved numbers of a closed universe are equal to zero, then there is nothing to prevent such a universe from being spontaneously created out of nothing. And according to quantum mechanics, any process which is not strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen with some probability."

Out of nothing, that is the exact definition of ex nihilo.

[seer]

Tass, I'm not saying that Vilenkin would agree that God did it, he said he had no opinion on the matter. The point is Vilenkin's theory of creation from a condition of no space, matter or time is by definition creation ex nihilo. It is interesting though that science is catching up with theology.

[shunyadragon]

From a condition where no space pre existed? Where exactly is that? Heaven? The spirit world? The fact is Shuny the laws of physics had to exist prior to creation according to Vilenkin. Where do non-physical principles like the laws of physics exist? He says we just don't know - it is a "great mystery." Well I'll tell where they logically could exist - the mind of God. And stop lying about me. I misrepresented nothing.

Vilenkin, Guth, Krauss, and Hawking explains the science behind the spontaneous formation of universes from the Quantum world, and they all agree.

[seer]

Vilenkin, Guth, Krauss, and Hawking explains the science behind the spontaneous formation of universes from the Quantum world, and they all agree.

In any case Shuny, Vilenkin's link was clear, there is no path for past eternal matter and energy: http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning

[shunyadragon]

In any case Shuny, Vilenkin's link was clear, there is no path for past eternal matter and energy: http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning

Misrepresentation again, that only refers to the universe itself in the article and NOT the Quantum world where Vilenkin, Guth, Hawking and Krauss describe the spontaneous origins of the universe,

[seer]

Misrepresentation again, that only refers to the universe itself in the article and NOT the Quantum world where Vilenkin, Guth, Hawking and Krauss describe the spontaneous origins of the universe,

Vilenkin does not say that the universe pops out of a pre existing Quantum world. Just the opposite, the quantum vacuum only comes into existence after the creation event. Again, start at 4:50 it is perfectly clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSESZR3wC8s&t=184s

Never mind the fact that without "space" there is no physical place for this pre existing quantum vacuum to actually exist. Perhaps fairyland...

[shunyadragon]

Vilenkin does not say that the universe pops out of a pre existing Quantum world. Just the opposite, the quantum vacuum only comes into existence after the creation event. Again, start at 4:50 it is perfectly clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSESZR3wC8s&t=184s

Never mind the fact that without "space" there is no physical place for this pre existing quantum vacuum to actually exist. Perhaps fairyland...

He does earlier in the same video, which I cited earlier and you chose to ignore.

[seer]

He does earlier in the same video, which I cited earlier and you chose to ignore.

No he doesn't - he is explaining how it all takes place through through the vacuum and tunneling - he never says that the Quantum vacuum pre existed the creation event, he is asked that very question (again at 4:50 on) and he is clear, the vacuum only comes after creation - the ONLY thing that exists "PRIOR" (his words) are the laws of physics in the Platonic sense. I know that goes against your religious agenda Shuny, but those are the breaks.

[JimL]

In any case Shuny, Vilenkin's link was clear, there is no path for past eternal matter and energy: http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning

He doesn't exactly say what he means by nothing, the quoatations around the word basically means he doesn't exactly know what he means by nothing other than that there is "no matter, no space, and no time." He then says that though there is this "nothing" the physical laws exist, and then asserts that those laws are not nothing. As far as I'm concerned, until and unless someone can show that plysical laws are existing things in and of themselves, then I'll take such assertions with a grain of salt. But I have to agree with you, that according to Vilinkens explanation, even though he himself doesn't come to that conclusion, one could conlude that the universe was created from nothing, but in truth thats far from what he is saying, he's saying that the laws themselves not only allow for the universe to pop into existence, but that the laws themselves also allow it to pop out of existence. No creator is needed in either case.

[Tassman]

Tass, I'm not saying that Vilenkin would agree that God did it, he said he had no opinion on the matter. The point is Vilenkin's theory of creation from a condition of no space, matter or time is by definition creation ex nihilo. It is interesting though that science is catching up with theology.