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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostGod does lie in the Bible, in a few different ways. This is understandable given that the bible was written by men and thus grounded in human values. E.g. God causes deception: In 1 Kings 22:23 God's "lying spirits" are put into people's mouths, causing them to lie. He also tests people by deception: In Deuteronomy 8:1-2 God reveals that the 40-years in the wilderness was a test done by God to find out what was in people's hearts - whether they would still obey orders. In Deuteronomy 13:1-5 God sends some false prophets and wonder-workers as tests to see if people will follow other gods.
Deut 8:1-2 doesn't even involve any deception in the first place even on a surface-level reading of the text, you probably just wanted to add another example to the list hoping no one would look it up.
Deut 13:1-5 Is God teaching His people how they should recognize and deal with false prophets. In other words, the very opposite of deception.
In other words, none of these are examples of God being deceptive. One (Deut 8:1-2) doesn't even have anything to do with deception in the first place, and the other two are examples of what happens when you stray from the path of the LORD (1 Kings 22:23) and start believing in false prophets, despite the fact that God clearly told you how to identify these prophets and what to do with them (Deut 13:1-5).
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Originally posted by seer View PostI will contend here that no such thing as objective morality exists. Objective here is defined as something that exists independent of the mind or minds.Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
George Horne
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Originally posted by mattbballman31 View PostObjective means independent of non-divine minds.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI would say that God's law is objective to humankind, but subjective to Him (since he is the subject) - how could it not be?Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
George Horne
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Originally posted by seer View PostI will contend here that no such thing as objective morality exists. Objective here is defined as something that exists independent of the mind or minds. If something is objective it has being apart from any personal knowledge of it. The sun, the color blue, trees, mountains etc... would all still exist even if there were no minds to grasp their reality. They have an independent existence. Morality is not in their category. Morality is interpersonal, how rational beings order their interaction with other rational beings. No rational beings, no opportunity for interaction, hence no morality. There is no independent rule "thou shalt not kill", such an ideal (which is really an abstract) does not, and I maintain, can not, exist apart from a mind or minds.
The problem is once you bring minds into the picture you have subjectivity, that is inescapable. Some will suggest that moral ideals are akin to mathematical truths, just kind of out there for us to discover. But here again we find subjectivity. Yes there is an objective distance between the moon and the earth for instance. But what you call that distance, the tokens you use to measure it, are subjective. Is the moon 384,400 kilometers away? Or 238,900 miles? Yes distance is an objective fact, how we measure it is subjective. And when it comes to ethics there are no objective facts to link a morally subjective measurement or opinion to. They are obviously not the same.
I was with you until your "distance to the moon" statement. That we have different ways of expressing measurements does not change the objective nature of the distance to the moon. The same is true of the other things you cite: color, topology, etc. Because all of reality is subjectively received (i.e., I probably do not see the blue of the sky exactly the same way you do, because our neural pathways are subtly different) does not mean reality does not have an objective truth to it.
But I am 100% with you on "objective" morality. Morality requires mind, and mind is subjectively related to the reality around it - so an "objective" morality (i.e., independent of any mind) makes no sense to me.
So I am forced to think our discussion in the other thread may have been awry partly because I was assuming you were using "objective," "universal," and "absolute" synonymously. It would be informative to learn how you see each of these terms, as related to morality. You clearly do not think morality can be objective, and you do think it can be universal. Absolute?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBut I am 100% with you on "objective" morality. Morality requires mind, and mind is subjectively related to the reality around it - so an "objective" morality (i.e., independent of any mind) makes no sense to me.
So I am forced to think our discussion in the other thread may have been awry partly because I was assuming you were using "objective," "universal," and "absolute" synonymously. It would be informative to learn how you see each of these terms, as related to morality. You clearly do not think morality can be objective, and you do think it can be universal. Absolute?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell we pretty much agree here...
I think it is universal since God and His law are universal, hence if the aliens kill and eat us they are doing a moral wrong. And I don't think I used term objective. And I would say absolute in that God has absolute authority over His creation.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell - I am with you on objective. I can only go with you on "universal" in so far as there are some moral norms that are so widely held by individuals, they are as close to "universal" as we're likely to get. I obviously can not join you on absolute. Without a belief in a deity, that one is nonsensical to me. I do recognize, however, that with a belief in a deity, it makes perfect sense.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell no, when I say universal I mean universal - not relative to earthlings... ; )The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYeah, I know, Bwana. Just looking to find as much common ground as possible...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Brandy, yes - especially a fine Courvoisier
Jager...not so much...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBrandy, yes - especially a fine Courvoisier
Jager...not so much...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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