Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[seer]

I agree with you, I'm not sure where the aseity of God comes into play here.

If you don't believe that God is the only universal source of ethics then there is a universal moral standard apart from God, independent of God. That does bring His aseity into question since aseity claims that He is the source of everything.

As part of the past, as a past event. It is (my favorite word again) now self-existent.

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, you just can't say dreams are self-existent and not tell me where/how they exist. If they no longer exist in a mind then where?

[lee_merrill]

But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.

All social species, including baboons, have the propensity to maintain their communities via instinctive rules of acceptable or unacceptable group behaviour.

Well, the moral law is often against my impulses, as mentioned previously, this leads me to believe that evolution is not just doctoring my impulses.

And baboons don't have moral laws, they (I believe) simply act on their strongest impulse.

Personally I regard it as sanctimonious cant.

Not trying to offend...

Best wishes,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

If you don't believe that God is the only universal source of ethics then there is a universal moral standard apart from God, independent of God. That does bring His aseity into question since aseity claims that He is the source of everything.

I thought aseity was about God's self-existence, not about him being the ultimate source?

aseity: the quality or state of being self-derived or self-originated; specifically :the absolute self-sufficiency, independence, and autonomy of God.

Lee, you just can't say dreams are self-existent and not tell me where/how they exist. If they no longer exist in a mind then where?

Just north of Pittsburg! Well, they don't exist spatially anywhere, but the effects of each dream are still in the world, so it can't be like the dream didn't happen. So, the dream really happened, thus it has real existence.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

I thought aseity was about God's self-existence, not about him being the ultimate source?

aseity: the quality or state of being self-derived or self-originated; specifically :the absolute self-sufficiency, independence, and autonomy of God.

There is more to it:

The aseity of God is His attribute of independent self-existence. God is the uncaused Cause, the uncreated Creator. He is the source of all things, the One who originated everything and who sustains everything that exists. The aseity of God means that He is the One in whom all other things find their source, existence, and continuance

In other words Lee, if there are objective ethics that God did not create then where did they come from?

Just north of Pittsburg! Well, they don't exist spatially anywhere, but the effects of each dream are still in the world, so it can't be like the dream didn't happen. So, the dream really happened, thus it has real existence.

Blessings,
Lee

How does a forgotten dream influence the world? I don't understand.

[37818]

God is the basis of truth. Omnipresent - there is not anything without God's presence. No beginning and infinite. Even those who will perish in the eternal hell - forsaken by God - will forever be in God's presence (Ezekiel 18:32).

[seer]

God is the basis of truth. Omnipresent - there is not anything without God's presence. No beginning and infinite. Even those who will perish in the eternal hell - forsaken by God - will forever be in God's presence (Ezekiel 18:32).

Well we agree on this.

[Tassman]

It may not be, certainly God could have used the evolutionary process (along with Revelation) to help make us aware of His moral truths.

Why assume God at all when natural selection provides sufficient explanation?

But this is the larger point; why do you think that Moral-Realism is so popular, even in atheist circles? Because man craves certainty - moral relativism can not provide that - even though that is a logical end for materialism. The Moral Realist seeks universal moral truth or facts, seeks an objective moral standard with out the baggage of a God. Of course they can't get there, but the need is evident. Which brings us to that strange phenomenon again, as I pointed out in other areas, man seems very dissatisfied with life as it is. Why isn't the atheist, or most men, accepting of moral relativism? Why the deep desire to attach ethics to something permanent, universal or objective when if atheism is true no such standard exists?

[Tassman]

Well, the moral law is often against my impulses, as mentioned previously, this leads me to believe that evolution is not just doctoring my impulses.

And baboons don't have moral laws, they (I believe) simply act on their strongest impulse.

Baboons and other higher primates possess qualities such as altruism, empathy, and gratitude which underpin moral behaviour and which are precursors of human moral behaviour. These pre-moral qualities evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

Not trying to offend...

Best wishes,
Lee

And best wishes to you.

[seer]

Why assume God at all when natural selection provides sufficient explanation?

You are assuming that it is a sufficient explanation. That because a monkey shares a banana therefore that is a basis for conceptual laws against murder, stealing, rape, etc...



Moral realism is popular among secular philosophers, but you can go back to Plato's Forms. You saw it here with Thinker, and more recently Charles - trying to get to moral absolutes from a secular platform. This desire for universal moral truth is ancient in man, whether these truths spring from the gods or not. That has a real queerness to it, man is once again, dissatisfied with his lot in life, craving something that you content doesn't exist.

[lee_merrill]

There is more to it...

Well, I am arguing that morals are self-existent--I don't think God has a problem with that!

In other words Lee, if there are objective ethics that God did not create then where did they come from?

They're self-existent, they have always been true.

How does a forgotten dream influence the world? I don't understand.

Dreams can influence our behavior, for instance.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Well, I am arguing that morals are self-existent--I don't think God has a problem with that!

So God did not create these morals, they are eternal like God?

They're self-existent, they have always been true.

Again, how do morals exist, where do they exist?

Dreams can influence our behavior, for instance.

Blessings,
Lee

That doesn't mean that all our dreams influence behavior. But you are suggesting something different - that they are self-existent, how is that possible, where do they exist apart from a mind?

[lee_merrill]

Baboons and other higher primates possess qualities such as altruism, empathy, and gratitude which underpin moral behaviour and which are precursors of human moral behaviour. These pre-moral qualities evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

Well, let's take one example, "do not steal". I could see how fitness (reproductive success) would be improved by stealing, and this happens a lot in the animal kingdom, but this is a moral principle. And it doesn't seem like one that would easily evolve.

Best wishes,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

And baboons don't have moral laws, they (I believe) simply act on their strongest impulse.

The evidence concerning primates does not support your assertion.

[seer]

Yet Chimps do kill each other and rape (forced sex) is wide spread. And you are assigning human emotions or thinking to non-humans.

[shunyadragon]

Yet Chimps do kill each other and rape (forced sex) is wide spread. And you are assigning human emotions or thinking to non-humans.

Sounds like you are describing human behavior more than Chimps. Your describing the similarities which remain regardless of your view. It is also observed that Chimps show empathy, social rules, reciprocity, and peace making, and like humans bad behavior. Also primative tool making and the teaching of those skills to others.