Originally posted by 37818
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostLee of course arithmetic table was created. Some one had to create the numbers one or two or three etc... You can have one rock, or two rocks or three rocks but you can not have 1+2=3 without a mind to invent the tokens we use in abstract reasoning.
How or where do moral principles exist apart from minds?
I would say that wisdom refers here to wisdom in reference to mankind:
Thus this wisdom would be created before man. But the principles are still eternal.
No Lee, if you hold that abstract principles (ethical or otherwise) can exist apart from rational minds it is up to you to show how and where they exist when no minds are present.
But why do these truths need God in order to be true? That was 37818's question.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by lee_merrill; 09-08-2017, 08:38 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post"I would say that mathematical and logical truths exist and are universal because our Creator is logical and mathematical."
But why do these truths need God in order to be true? That was 37818's question.
Blessings,
LeeAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThey don't make anything - you may have a group of rocks but there is no mathematical value to them until a mind assigns that value. But I would say that mathematical and logical truths exist and are universal because our Creator is logical and mathematical. It is how He thinks and how He Created - it all goes back to Him.
And besides, God knows the number of all things without any need to count anything. God does not think as we do, God is absolutely omniscient.
Now on the premise that there is no God. Can you logically show that such a premise is an impossibility and therefore absurd? The mere presumption of God does not give any explanation as to the necessity of God for self evident truths. Uncaused existence needs no God. All traditional arguments set out to prove God is in existence. Where existence is not in need of any proof. Uncaused of existence is not in need of any god.
Morality is objective because behavior is objective. Bad behavior is defined by good behavior. Not the other way around.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat is false. The quantity of rocks or quantity of anything else is that quantity whether there is someone to count them or not. If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound if no one hears it? It is the same type of question. Objective reality does not depend on anyone to be objective. That of course on the premise that there is no God.
Now on the premise that there is no God. Can you logically show that such a premise is an impossibility and therefore absurd? The mere presumption of God does not give any explanation as to the necessity of God for self evident truths. Uncaused existence needs no God. All traditional arguments set out to prove God is in existence. Where existence is not in need of any proof. Uncaused of existence is not in need of any god.
Morality is objective because behavior is objective. Bad behavior is defined by good behavior. Not the other way around.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo it is not false, the rocks would exist yes, but quantifying them into two rocks and two rocks equaling four rocks does not. That is an abstract and requires a mind. And yes the tree would still make a sound - that is a physical act, not an abstract concept.
Now on the premise that there is no God. Can you logically show that such a premise is an impossibility and therefore absurd? The mere presumption of God does not give any explanation as to the necessity of God for self evident truths. Uncaused existence needs no God. All traditional arguments set out to prove God is in existence. Where existence is not in need of any proof. Uncaused of existence is not in need of any god.
Who or what defines good and bad behavior?
And how can you have ethics without minds? Ethics by nature are interpersonal, persons are necessary.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe quantity of things (not counted by any mind) is just the same quantity.
How does your point of argument (a mind) answer this?
What constitutes being beneficial - constructive as opposed to destructive? Evil is defined by what is good. Not the other way around. Good is the self-evident truths.
Now ethics is a science. The laws of physics are not caused by science nor is good caused by ethics. Ethics is the study of objective good. Behavior requires minds. And behavior is the objective acts of minds. What is good is defined apart from the mind. It is ethics by which the mind discovers objective good.Last edited by seer; 09-09-2017, 12:05 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou could have a group of rocks, but it takes a mind to organize the idea of two rocks and two rocks equaling four rocks. The rocks would still exist without a mind, the abstract would not.
Ethics are not mapping physical qualities in the universe, they are completely abstract. "Murder is wrong" does not track or map any physical property in the universe. It is fully subjective.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThe abstract would not be appreciated, but the abstract (Plato's forms!) would still exist.
In my view, moral truths, mathematical truths are there to be discovered. A proposition which is not nonsense is either true or false. "Murder is wrong" is not nonsense, even if there is no one to consider this. It is not false, it must therefore be true.
Blessings,
LeeAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I would say that Plato's Forms don't exist either - how could they?
Now I'm not saying that Plato's forms were in mind here, but we are to fix our eyes on what is unseen.
Lee, let me ask you, if objective morality is a fact is God obligated to follow those ethical laws?
God is not subservient to the rules, he embodies love and grace, but he does follow his own rules, which express the rules of moral law, and which express his nature.
But math truths, the laws of physics, even logical laws are grounded in physical reality. "Murder is wrong" is no more than opinion. An opinion that all men do not hold.
Then there is another problem. If I jump off a cliff the law of gravity will make sure that I experience the consequences. If a Stalin murders what consequences do objective moral laws impose on him? There would be no rational reason to follow them even if they did exist.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post[/cite]
God is not subservient to the rules, he embodies love and grace, but he does follow his own rules, which express the rules of moral law, and which express his nature.
No, it's a principle, which applies whether men subscribe to it or not.
The law is a standard, it does not punish in and of itself. The golden rule is like a ruler...
Blessings,
LeeAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostI agree that moral principles exist in the mind of God regardless of whether men know them or not. But I do not agree that moral principles have existence in themselves, or exist apart from minds.
With no enforcement for violating them.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSo does a person thinking about a moral principle give being to that principle? Just not sure how this would actually work.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostExcept there is actually no quantity assigned to them. If there are no minds to count the rocks how many rocks are there? It is unknown.
I don't have to - we live in a universe Created by a rational mind. The source of self-evident truths.
How is that any more than your opinion?
And constructive or to destructive to what?
And why is it a self-evident truth that it is a objective moral good for our species to survive.
Then tell me where do these objective truths exist apart from minds?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, if it is a correct moral principle you are "Thinking God's thoughts after Him." We are reflecting on the "law of God written on our hearts."
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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