Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[shunyadragon]

Shuny the Ten Commandments are both divine and moral.

The Ten Commandments are Divine Law. The moral and ethical issues of wrongful death are not Divine Law.

[JimL]

No, God's law can not be arbitrary since it is grounded or proceeds from His immutable character and His omniscience. Where our moral judgements are grounded in a mutable, often fickle, moral nature that is severely limited in knowledge or foresight.

Well if god is not arbitrarily deciding, then in what sense are you calling it a mind? If morals aren't a decision that are made, then they are objective, i.e. they have their own existence outside of the mind.

[shunyadragon]

No, God's law can not be arbitrary since it is grounded or proceeds from His immutable character and His omniscience.

Correct.

Where our moral judgments are grounded in a mutable, often fickle, moral nature that is severely limited in knowledge or foresight.

This is a little extreme, but you are on the right track for the reasons that Divine Law is not morals and ethics, which are human values of right and wrong. They are mutable, and limited in knowledge, but for th most part consistent and functional within the context of the morals and ethics of a given culture.

[seer]

Well if god is not arbitrarily deciding, then in what sense are you calling it a mind? If morals aren't a decision that are made, then they are objective, i.e. they have their own existence outside of the mind.

No Jim, you are not understanding, God is not and can not be arbitrary. For instance, God by nature is truthful, He can not lie.

[seer]

The Ten Commandments are Divine Law. The moral and ethical issues of wrongful death are not Divine Law.

I have no idea what that means.

[JimL]

No Jim, you are not understanding, God is not and can not be arbitrary. For instance, God by nature is truthful, He can not lie.

Then in what sense do you see god as a mind? See you can't have it both ways, either god is a mind and makes judgements of right and wrong, or he is not a mind, rather he'd/it'd just be a static set of facts. Facts don't lie, thats true, but they have no reality of their own, they are just relative descriptors of that which is, of nature.

[lee_merrill]

But why should our species survive? Or life in general, why are the nihilists wrong?

There is no "should lee, there is no reason why we should survive. We could all die of some unforseen catastrophy tomorrow and there would be no reason why we should die either. Why do you keep asking?

So then, per seer, atheism boils down to nihilism.

Best wishes,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

But I thought we had concluded that instinctive morals boiled down to enlightened self-interest, thus altruism is not sincere.

Enlightened self-interest encompasses the whole range of evolved behaviours which facilitate community survival including altruism, bonding, cooperation, empathy, reciprocity and response to the social rules of the group.

Altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others.

That is what I mean by altruism, which is therefore incompatible with selfishness, however enlightened it may be.

Best wishes,
Lee

[JimL]

So then, per seer, atheism boils down to nihilism.

Best wishes,
Lee

Well, only we human beings concern ourselves with such things, thats the problem with having highly evolved brains. In reality we are no different than any other life form on earth when it comes to ultimates. Yes according to atheism, as far as can be seen, there is no ultimate reason for our existence, just as there was no ultimate reason for the existence of the dinasaurs. Every thing will die some day, including the universe of our experience.

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what that means.

The Ten Commandments are Divine Law. The moral and ethical issues of wrongful death are not Divine Law.

Where our moral judgments are grounded in a mutable, often fickle, moral nature that is severely limited in knowledge or foresight.

[Tassman]

Altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others.

'Altruism' nevertheless exists among social species, because the benefits of being part of an altruistic group outweigh the benefits of individual selfishness.

That is what I mean by altruism, which is therefore incompatible with selfishness, however enlightened it may be.

Not at all, restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups benefits us all.

[seer]

Then in what sense do you see god as a mind? See you can't have it both ways, either god is a mind and makes judgements of right and wrong, or he is not a mind, rather he'd/it'd just be a static set of facts. Facts don't lie, thats true, but they have no reality of their own, they are just relative descriptors of that which is, of nature.

Yes Jim, God thinks, wills and acts and that is not prevented because He has an immutable moral nature. Because He can not lie for instance, does not mean that He can not act or interact, will or create. It just means that He can not lie when acting, or being unjust when acting. I don't see the problem.

[Tassman]

Yes Jim, God thinks, wills and acts and that is not prevented because He has an immutable moral nature. Because He can not lie for instance, does not mean that He can not act or interact, will or create. It just means that He can not lie when acting, or being unjust when acting. I don't see the problem.

[seer]

So what is you point? He often uses the wicked for His purposes - like you...

[seer]

The Ten Commandments are Divine Law. The moral and ethical issues of wrongful death are not Divine Law.

Shuny how is "do not murder" not a moral injunction?