Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[shunyadragon]

Well, that's "what", what I need to know is "why".

For the survival of the species, and life in general.

Selfishness is the motive for moral behavior?! I protest...

Blessings,
Lee

Protest all you like, but to no avail. If the pack of wolves does not respect the hierarchy, share the food and the need to cooperate to hunt large animals for food, the pack cannot survive.

[shunyadragon]

"Love your neighbor as yourself." This precludes an essentially selfish motive.

No, loving ones neighbor as yourself is a motivation for a cooperative relationship for netter chances of survival.

[Tassman]

Indeed, there is no special place for humans in instinctive morality.

There is no special place for humans other than being the most intelligent species in the animal kingdom.

The standard is ingrained in us, yes, but altruism, not so much. Otherwise, we wouldn't need teachers to point out our shortcomings.But I don't think instincts can get as far as altruism, enlightened self-interest won't give up itself.

Altruism is just as ingrained as reciprocity in social species such as us. NB the experiments of primatologist and ethologist Frans de Waal.

https://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_w...ls_have_morals

[seer]

Protest all you like, but to no avail. If the pack of wolves does not respect the hierarchy, share the food and the need to cooperate to hunt large animals for food, the pack cannot survive.

Shuny many species do not live in community, nor do they cooperate to do anything, yet they survive just fine. Lizards, squirrels, bears, etc, etc, etc... demonstrate this fact.

[seer]

Seems to me that if what you define as the soul, exists along with your body and moves about in space, then no matter how else you might want to define it, it is spatial.

Not really because the soul would not be material. It would have no material presence.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny many species do not live in community, nor do they cooperate to do anything, yet they survive just fine. Lizards, squirrels, bears, etc, etc, etc... demonstrate this fact.

etc., etc., etc., this seer only demonstrates your ignorance of nature of evolution and life itself on our planet. Over billions of years of evolution life evolves opportunistically to adapt to different environments. It is obvious some animals do not evolve cooperative behavior to survive and adapt to different environments in the diversity of life on our planet. The facts is, particularly in higher mammals, cooperative social behavior evolves as a mechanism for the survival of species.

[seer]

etc., etc., etc., this seer only demonstrates your ignorance of nature of evolution and life itself on our planet. Over billions of years of evolution life evolves opportunistically to adapt to different environments. It is obvious some animals do not evolve cooperative behavior to survive and adapt to different environments in the diversity of life on our planet. The facts is, particularly in higher mammals, cooperative social behavior evolves as a mechanism for the survival of species.

That does not mean that cooperative behavior is necessary for survival, there are non-social primates and survive just fine.

[shunyadragon]

That does not mean that cooperative behavior is necessary for survival, there are non-social primates and survive just fine.

Oh yes, seer, it does mean the cooperative behavior is necessary for survival for some species not all. It has been directly observed that when cooperative behavior breaks down individuals do not survive due to predation, breakdown of family structure, failure to nurture the young, and loose of food resources. The breakdown of social order and the individuals do not survive has been observed for in elephants, primates, wolves, and whales. It is already established and acknowledged that some species do not require cooperative behavior to survive.

I have had the college courses that describe the research concerning this. What are your qualifications to make the assertions you make based on your agenda.

[seer]

Oh yes, seer, it does mean the cooperative behavior is necessary for survival for some species not all. It has been directly observed that when cooperative behavior breaks down individuals do not survive due to predation, breakdown of family structure, failure to nurture the young, and loose of food resources. The breakdown of social order and the individuals do not survive has been observed for in elephants, primates, wolves, and whales. It is already established and acknowledged that some species do not require cooperative behavior to survive.

I have had the college courses that describe the research concerning this. What are your qualifications to make the assertions you make based on your agenda.

Nonsense Shuny, you can not quantify this. There may be advantages in living in community, but there are also disadvantages. People can steal your stuff, hurt or kill you, you are in competition for resources.

[JimL]

Not really because the soul would not be material. It would have no material presence.

But what differece should that make, if, along with your body, the soul moves about in space, then that is what is meant by spatial, no?

[Charles]

It's seer's tiresome little game which he plays endlessly. The conclusion you are meant to draw from it is that without God there can be no morality. This is an unsupported assertion and he forgets that we have evolved as a social species and therefore predisposed to obey the rules of the group.

His idea basically seems to be that we have to allow that anything god finds good is good, no matter what. And it is all based on the authority of a god he cannot prove. So if anything can be good and you do not need a proof for the foundation then seer has got great stuff.... :-)

[seer]

His idea basically seems to be that we have to allow that anything god finds good is good, no matter what. And it is all based on the authority of a god he cannot prove. So if anything can be good and you do not need a proof for the foundation then seer has got great stuff.... :-)

Charles and you have not offered a better ground or source for universal ethics than God. So in reality you are logically mired in moral relativism, which means that your protests against any act of God is as meaningless and without warrant as any other moral opinion that you may happen hold. Great stuff, that...

[JimL]

Charles and you have not offered a better ground or source for universal ethics than God. So in reality you are logically mired in moral relativism, which means that your protests against any act of God is as meaningless and without warrant as any other moral opinion that you may happen hold. Great stuff, that...

Accept that non-believers don't protest against any act of an actual known to exist god, they don't believe in an actual known to exist god. What we protest is what we believe to be a fantasy god, that if human, most humans would find to be evil.

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense Shuny, you can not quantify this. There may be advantages in living in community, but there are also disadvantages. People can steal your stuff, hurt or kill you, you are in competition for resources.

There are advantages that out way disadvantages that would lead to the breakdown and failure of the community. The disadvantages? are not a matter of cooperation, but individuals who break the rules both in human and animal communities. Such failure to cooperate and participate like "freeloading" and theft in primate communities is severely punished. Likewise this is true in human communities. It is the survival of the community, and not the individual. Social cooperation dominates in human communities, and animal communities where it is necessary for the community, and the individuals to survive.

[seer]

Accept that non-believers don't protest against any act of an actual known to exist god, they don't believe in an actual known to exist god. What we protest is what we believe to be a fantasy god, that if human, most humans would find to be evil.

That is just silly Jim, you really have no ground to call anything evil, there is no evil. Just personal or collective preferences.