Charles, I think you and Seer both agree that human beings HAVE dignity as a whole, as a species. You are just arguing about WHY they have it. Is it because of God? Because of Nature? Because of something else?
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Human Dignity?
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Originally posted by seer View PostCharles, I'm not saying that it proves we have inherent worth or purpose or dignity only that nature does not endow us with such inherent properties but that God could.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI am speaking of inherent worth or dignity, not what we subjectively decide or not decide is worthy. And humans kill other humans, war and steal, rape, etc... So no, inherent worth is not possible with materialism, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-02-2017, 09:49 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostCharles, I think you and Seer both agree that human beings HAVE dignity as a whole, as a species. You are just arguing about WHY they have it. Is it because of God? Because of Nature? Because of something else?Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-02-2017, 10:17 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is just stupid Tass, it does not follow that therefore there is inherent human dignity or worth. Inherent means we have a quality by nature, that is not the case if materialism is true.
Any more than a house fly has inherent worth.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostAnd what I am asking is you to prove or at least explain how God could even do that.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSomething else is unlikely (aliens?), dignity and self worth simply exists as attributes of human nature. It cannot not be objectively determined whether 'Dignity and Self-worth,' nor falsified, as to whether ir is natural origin through evolution, or of Divine origin. It may be believed from the perspective of the belief in God and Creation, but this remains a belief not based pn unbiased objective verifiable evidence.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOf course it is. Human dignity or worth is what we define it to be and it is grounded in our evolved, instinctive notions of altruism, cooperation and mutual reciprocity. Not endowed by God.
False equivalence! A house fly has not evolved with the same instinctive needs and attributes as humansAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCharles it would flow from purpose and ontology. Were we created for a purpose and what are we by nature. So as God's unique image bearers we have a greater inherent worth than animals for instance, and a value that is linked to a God given purpose.
Like I said so far you have offered nothing but a subjective view that does nothing to explain why human beings are worthy.
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo what if it is not objectively determined Shuny? You believe that humans have immaterial souls, apart from objective verifiable evidence.
Unfortunately others and you are citing people like Chalmers and others as if there is objective verifiable evidence that the mind is independent and separate from the brain, justifying that the mind and consciousness as separate and independent from the Brain. The argument is plagued by weak 'arguing from ignorance.'Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-03-2017, 01:49 PM.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostBut how do you prove the purpose to be good? Some would say God's purpose is that they should kill non-believers. You would say that is not the purpose. So you say one thing they say another. Is this more than your subjective opinion? If so then where is the logical foundation for your claims to be wrong and them to be right. So far I see nothing but subjective opinions and words about "God's unique image bearers" but what is the "original" that we are an image of. How is the original worthy or proven good?
Like I said so far you have offered nothing but a subjective view that does nothing to explain why human beings are worthy.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOf course, I believe the immaterial soul is not verifiable by objective evidence, but that is not the issue.
Unfortunately others and you are citing people like Chalmers and others as if there is objective verifiable evidence that the mind is independent and separate from the brain, justifying that the mind and consciousness as separate and independent from the Brain. The argument is plagued by weak 'arguing from ignorance.'Last edited by seer; 08-03-2017, 01:45 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut I'm not speaking of what is good Charles. I'm only making the case for inherent value and why we have value. What one considers "good" can be completely different depending on the person or culture. With theism you have the option of there being a purpose for human beings - no such purpose exists with nature alone as our creator.
But I did tell you why, and that offers a source for inherent value. You may not agree, but so what? So either you believe that humans do not have inherent value/purpose, or if you do you need to tell us why or how this value comes about when nature does not and can not create us with this intrinsic property.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostBut what is the value of that value? I mean, you cannot prove or show how God is even good if I understand you correctly? And what is the purpose and how do you show that it is the right purpose? To claim there can be purpose but giving no acount as to how or why seems rather weak. You may go for this subjectively, but I don't see how this can apply to anyone else.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight so the soul is real even though we can not objectively prove it.
And your own religion states that the mind, though connected to the brain, is different from the brain and immaterial, and beyond science to investigate.
"" Extract, letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, June 7th, 1946 from Arohanui: Letters to New Zealand, p. 89)Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-03-2017, 02:32 PM.
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