Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

[Charles]

There you go again, "hard to see" "reflecting human beings" - these are personal opinions Charles, nothing more. They are not deductive reasons, they do not reach universality. And it is not universal, that is why you never answered the question about aliens harvesting us for food - why that would be a moral wrong. Possibly you could make the case that the GR is relative to humankind, but that is not universality.



But why would what you find compelling or not compelling even be a consideration? I already told you why I believe that God would be the best foundation for ethics.

1. It would mean that concepts like justice or moral law are universal.

2. They would be authoritative, having a universal rule and judge.

3. Meaning that we live in a just and moral universe rather than your unjust and amoral universe.

5. Our best moral instincts are tied to something eternal, certain and immutable.

But your personal subjective belief in a God you cannot prove does not give you any of the 5 in any other place than your own mind.

[seer]

But your personal subjective belief in a God you cannot prove does not give you any of the 5 in any other place than your own mind.

Charles, I never said or even hinted that our subjective minds can't grasp objective truths. The laws of logic are objective truths, the sun's existence is an objective truth, God's existence is an objective truth. And again, there are things you can not "prove" but nevertheless take as fact.

[Charles]

Charles, I never said or even hinted that our subjective minds can't grasp objective truths. The laws of logic are objective truths, the sun's existence is an objective truth, God's existence is an objective truth. And again, there are things you can not "prove" but nevertheless take as fact.

You sure hinted that.

There are thing you cannot prove but believe anyway. But not without good reason. If Gods existence is objective then how come you cannot prove it? Objective but unprovable?

[seer]

You sure hinted that.

There are thing you cannot prove but believe anyway. But not without good reason. If Gods existence is objective then how come you cannot prove it? Objective but unprovable?

Logically prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality, or that other minds exist, or that your mom loved you. And of course something can be objective and not provable to particular individuals.

[Charles]

Logically prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality, or that other minds exist, or that your mom loved you. And of course something can be objective and not provable to particular individuals.

So you are claiming, if I got you correct, that we can know that God exists, that his existence is objective but cannot be proved? How can we know? What kind of objective existence is it? What is the role of faith in all of this? So far I have mainly seen you point to what you find about certain things about God. It has all been about your subjective personal take on this. But if you have got more than that a more detailed description would be very interesting.

[Charles]

Read your New Testament, and the historical accounts. BTW - prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality - or do you take it by faith.

I read those. You still gave no answer as to whether that was proof or not in your opinion. Are you trying to "weaken" the concept of knowledge by the last question?

[seer]

So you are claiming, if I got you correct, that we can know that God exists, that his existence is objective but cannot be proved? How can we know? What kind of objective existence is it? What is the role of faith in all of this? So far I have mainly seen you point to what you find about certain things about God. It has all been about your subjective personal take on this. But if you have got more than that a more detailed description would be very interesting.

Of course you can know: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the skies proclaim His handiwork." In other words a rational universe points to a rational Creator. And you would naturally intuit that fact except sin has clouded your cognitive faculties.

[seer]

I read those. You still gave no answer as to whether that was proof or not in your opinion. Are you trying to "weaken" the concept of knowledge by the last question?

No I'm stating a fact, that we all rely on "faith." That we all believe things that can not be "proven." Heck Charles, offer a non-arbitrary definition of evidence.

[Charles]

Of course you can know: "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the skies proclaim His handiwork." In other words a rational universe points to a rational Creator. And you would naturally intuit that fact except sin has clouded your cognitive faculties.

The last part reminds me a bit of the story about the emperor without clothes... And is the first part more than just a claim? A Muslim could make a similar statement. Any theist could claim something along those lines. At most it will point to the existence of "some" God. How do we know - if we are to go for the unsupported claim - it is the God that you have a personal and subjective faith in? And what does earthquakes and other natural disasters killing thousands of innocent people tell us about "His handiwork"?

[Charles]

No I'm stating a fact, that we all rely on "faith." That we all believe things that can not be "proven." Heck Charles, offer a non-arbitrary definition of evidence.

But the fact you point to, the fact that we all rely on faith, must be either:

1) dependent on faith, and thus it is not a fact, because facts are not dependent on faith, or
2) not dependent on faith, and then you have pointed to something that we do not need to rely on faith on because it is a fact.

That was simple. Which one of the two would you go for?

[seer]

The last part reminds me a bit of the story about the emperor without clothes... And is the first part more than just a claim? A Muslim could make a similar statement. Any theist could claim something along those lines. At most it will point to the existence of "some" God. How do we know - if we are to go for the unsupported claim - it is the God that you have a personal and subjective faith in? And what does earthquakes and other natural disasters killing thousands of innocent people tell us about "His handiwork"?

See Charles, it would be like demonstrating the color red to a man born blind. Your sin has really affected you ability to reason, this is basic theology:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So no matter my response you will shake your fists and cry - what about earthquakes, or bring up some other objection ad infinitum! In other words trying convince the sinner is a fool's errand. And all this when you have refused, time and time again, to answer one simple question: If aliens came to earth and harvested us for food, would that be a universal moral wrong - and why?

[seer]

But the fact you point to, the fact that we all rely on faith, must be either:

1) dependent on faith, and thus it is not a fact, because facts are not dependent on faith, or
2) not dependent on faith, and then you have pointed to something that we do not need to rely on faith on because it is a fact.

That was simple. Which one of the two would you go for?

Prove number one. Prove that some facts are not based on faith. Then prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality, without begging the question.

[Charles]

See Charles, it would be like demonstrating the color red to a man born blind. Your sin has really affected you ability to reason, this is basic theology:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So no matter my response you will shake your fists and cry - what about earthquakes, or bring up some other objection ad infinitum! In other words trying convince the sinner is a fool's errand. And all this when you have refused, time and time again, to answer one simple question: If aliens came to earth and harvested us for food, would that be a universal moral wrong - and why?

So you had nothing objective or rational? You cannot even give an answer to the objection. So you have to attack my person instead. if people don't agree they are just blind sinners. The emperor without clothes... Any religion, any cult, any person could argue along these lines. But thank you for making it obvious that this is what you have got.

[Charles]

Prove number one. Prove that some facts are not based on faith. Then prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality, without begging the question.

I am making you aware of the logical consequences of your statements. 1 is contradictory (it is not a fact if you need to have faith in it). 2 is not contradictory but contradicts the idea that we are dependent on faith in all cases. This is what follows from what you said, I do not agree with your initial statement that leads to either 1 or 2.

[seer]

So you had nothing objective or rational? You cannot even give an answer to the objection. So you have to attack my person instead. if people don't agree they are just blind sinners. The emperor without clothes... Any religion, any cult, any person could argue along these lines. But thank you for making it obvious that this is what you have got.

There you go again. As far as any other religion or cult goes worship what you like. But I gave you one of the reasons why I was a Christian and why I believe in God. But you will gainsay - it is in your nature.