The Identity of God.

[robrecht]

Seriously???? This response is ridiculous.

Heck, as a Baha'i I am a heretic as far as the Roman Church is concerned, and eternally doomed to Hell, what ever that is.

Precisely! Your interpretation has been reduced to absurdity, it is indeed ridiculous. That is what happens when one applies your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the church's teaching to the very text that you just cited.

Read your own last quotation from the StayCatholic website: "As Vatican II put it "Hence, those cannot be saved, who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded through Jesus Christ, by God, as something necessary, still refuse to enter it or remain in it" (Decree on the Church's Missionary Activity no. 7). Their conflicting thoughts would excuse them if they truly sought God but were unaware of this requirement.

You should also be able to see the difference between your misrepresentation of Catholic teaching and Lumen Gentium 14: "... Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Likewise in the formulation of the catechism and the International Theological Commission: Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

That is why Gaudium et spes, 22 can say:

"All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way.(31) For, since Christ died for all men,(32) and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.

On the other hand, you say merely that "The only allowance for salvation outside the church is defined as: Those who through no fault of their own have no knowledge of the One True Church ..." No it is offered to all men (and women) outside the church in a mysterious and unseen manner known only to God. It is not a question of merely having knowledge of the church's existence or or even having an awareness of its teaching (however convoluted yours might be), that would prevent one from being saved, or not having no such knowledge, would excuse one. One has to know that the church was founded by God as necessary for salvation and yet still refuse to enter it. You cannot say that Jews, Protestants, Muslims, members of other religions, and atheists all know that the Catholic Church was founded by God as something necessary for salvation but nonetheless refuse to enter it. That would indeed be ridiculous. Reductio ad absurdum.

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)

[robrecht]

I responded with clear and specific references in the Vatican II and the Lumen Gentium (14) that the doctrine remains intact as an infallible document of the Roman Chursh, which I do not consider 'Catholic' because I am a heretic.

a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church."

[OingoBoingo]

Yours may indeed be a case of invincible ignorance.

You ain't kiddin.

[MaxVel]

Precisely! Your interpretation has been reduced to absurdity, it is indeed ridiculous. {...snip....}

You clearly have not understood what you have cited. {...snip...}

And, even though you cannot bring yourself to admit to admit the truth, {...snip....}

Yours may indeed be a case of invincible ignorance. {...snip....}

Unfortunately, the above comments are a reflection of a pretty common pattern in Shunyadragon's posting.

Everyone makes mistakes and misunderstands things now and then, but most people can (eventually) admit that they were wrong.

[robrecht]

Unfortunately, the above comments are a reflection of a pretty common pattern in Shunyadragon's posting.

Everyone makes mistakes and misunderstands things now and then, but most people can (eventually) admit that they were wrong.

So true. I experience joy when I acknowledge that I was mistaken about something. It means I'm still capable of learning things. I love learning stuff.

[shunyadragon]

a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church."

These are assertions, which I responded to by specific quotations from the Vatican II, Catachism, Lumen Gentium (14) and scholars that you chose to ignore. Nothing above substantiates your argument. So far nothing specific from you that anyone is saved outside the church other then those that are ignorant through no fault of their own. The Vatican II is clear and specific on standards of salvation outside the church is, and includes no other cases.

Again, again and again . . .

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

© Copyright Original Source

[robrecht]

These are assertions, which I responded to by specific quotations from the Vatican II, Lumen Gentium (14) and scholars that you chose to ignore. Nothing above substantiates your argument. So far nothing specific from you that anyone is saved outside the church other then those that are ignorant through no fault of their own. The Vatican II is clear and specific on standards of salvation outside the church is, and includes no other cases.

Again, again and again . . .

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

© Copyright Original Source

I'm sorry, which scholars are you claiming I ignored? Your citation simply does not mean what you think it does. It does not support your thesis. You cannot possibly claim that Jews, Protestants, Muslims, those of other religious faiths, agnostics, and atheists all know that the Catholic Church is founded as necessary by God through Christ, and nonetheless refuse to enter it. Nor can you find a single authoritative church document or scholar who takes this position.

[shunyadragon]

I'm sorry, which scholars are you claiming I ignored? Your citation simply does not mean what you think it does. It does not support your thesis. You cannot possibly claim that Jews, Protestants, Muslims, those of other religious faiths, agnostics, and atheists all know that the Catholic Church is founded as necessary by God through Christ, and nonetheless refuse to enter it. Nor can you find a single authoritative church document or scholar who takes this position.

Voluntary ignorance does not justify your claim. The citations are clear and specific.

Again, Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved other then through the ignorance of the church?

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

[robrecht]

Voluntary ignorance does not justify your claim. The citations are clear and specific.

You have neglected to tell me which of your scholars you claim I have ignored. I have made no specific claim that needs to be backed up. I have merely pointed you to the correct documents which present the current authoritative teaching of the Catholic church and corrected your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of same. The interpretation of these texts is not my own but rather that of the Vatican dicastery, the Church's International Theological Commission, the last six popes, and all theologians I have known, as well as every Catholic I have ever met over several decades, and some 25 years of Catholic education. I do not agree with every Catholic doctrine or dogma, but I do not misrepresent or misunderstand them.

[robrecht]

Voluntary ignorance does not justify your claim. The citations are clear and specific.

Again, Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved other then through the ignorance of the church?

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Go and read my previous explanation to you of this text. You are ignoring the current teaching about the universalist understanding of this phrase and of the church as the universal sacrament of salvation, the sign and instrument of communion with God and of the unity of all humanity. It would be good for you to read completely the documents cited for you.

[shunyadragon]

Go and read my previous explanation to you of this text. You are ignoring the current teaching about the universalist understanding of this phrase and of the church as the universal sacrament of salvation, the sign and instrument of communion with God and of the unity of all humanity. It would be good for you to read completely the documents cited for you.

Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post

Voluntary ignorance does not justify your claim. The citations are clear and specific.

Again, Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved other then through the ignorance of the church?

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.



Your explanation is insufficient, not authoritative, and anecdotal at best. Need specific references for you to justify your argument. I have given mine. You have provided nothing.

[robrecht]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
Your explanation is insufficient, not authoritative, and anecdotal at best. Need specific references for you to justify your argument. I have given mine. You have provided nothing.

Nonsense, Frank. I have done nothing but cite authoritative sources for you. You've even begun to cite from some of them yourself, after apparently tacitly abandoning your original anonymous document from Our Lady of the Rosary Library. Now if you would just read these sources that you yourself have cited, you would not be able in good conscience to say that 'my' explanation is insufficient and not authoritative or that it is even 'my explanation'. I already suggested that you do so. Not sure why you prefer ignorance. Just read. I would have expected you to have done so already.

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense, Frank. I have done nothing but cite authoritative sources for you. You've even begun to cite from some of them yourself, after apparently tacitly abandoning your original anonymous document from Our Lady of the Rosary Library. Now if you would just read these sources that you yourself have cited, you would not be able in good conscience to say that 'my' explanation is insufficient and not authoritative or that it is even 'my explanation'. I already suggested that you do so. Not sure why you prefer ignorance. Just read. I would have expected you to have done so already.

Nonsense, I cited where the exceptions are given specificaly as noted in the Catachism and Vatican II documents. They are specific, and the doctrine is consider still in place as cited here.

Voluntary ignorance does not justify your claim. The citations are clear and specific.

Again, Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved other then through the ignorance of the church?

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

[robrecht]

"Again, Where specifically does it say those outside the One True Church may be saved other then through the ignorance of the church?"

In part, it depends on how you define 'ignorance', and ignorance 'of what'. What you keep citing without understanding is this phrase: "knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." Thus we are not simply speaking of "ignorance of the church," as you say, but ignorance of the knowledge that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God. Do you not even understand these very words that you keep citing over and over again?

[37818]

This needs to be established (and pointing out how it is labelled in hebrew does not do that).

See Strong's Hebrew Dictionary number 3068. the self-Existent. And is typically translated "the LORD."

Source: Proverbs 21:30

[There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.

© Copyright Original Source

Again, you need to establish that the universe was caused. It could have appeared spontaneously, it could be eternal (the Big Bang indicates our space-time had a start, but our space-time could exist in a larger continuum).

Space-time as we know it has an origin. Our universe's existence consists of space-time. Even if we can show that space-time is of an infinite series, it is not "self existent" in that it is contingent on "matter." Without matter space-time cannot be measured, let along there would be nothing for which the speed of light to be the speed of light.