The Identity of God.

[shunyadragon]

I did not limit you to the seven principle authors; cite any of the many more who were consulted or otherwise substantively contributed to the final content. Just one out of however many you think contributed to the drafts or final version.

Well, back peddling more then a bit. Pope Benedict was involved, and please read the document posted above. There were not specifically seven authors of the document.

[shunyadragon]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...tiones_en.html

And, of course, Dominus Iesus said the same thing:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...-iesus_en.html

The press release is accurate, and you have failed to document otherwise.

Old turf. All your references involve the Roman Church's efforts in an ecumenical outreach to the 'separated brethren' outside the One True Church to bring them back to the fold, and not to consider that there is Salvation Outside the Church out side that which was specifically defined in the Vatican II and Lumen Gentium. The strategy was to use common ground to promote constructive dialogue for this purpose. None of this deals with the bottom line as what is the 'True Nature' of Salvation outside the One True Church, as Pope Benedict XXIII clarifies in his 2007 letter.

[robrecht]

Well, back peddling more then a bit. Pope Benedict was involved, and please read the document posted above. There were not specifically seven authors of the document.

So, why not stop back peddling and tell us which of the authors you had in mind.

[robrecht]

The press release is accurate, and you have failed to document otherwise.

Old turf. All your references involve the Roman Church's efforts in an ecumenical outreach to the 'separated brethren' outside the One True Church to bring them back to the fold, and not to consider that there is Salvation Outside the Church out side that which was specifically defined in the Vatican II and Lumen Gentium. The strategy was to use common ground to promote constructive dialogue for this purpose. None of this deals with the bottom line as what is the 'True Nature' of Salvation outside the One True Church, as Pope Benedict XXIII clarifies in his 2007 letter.

Part of the common ground was the obvious issue that the Protestant denominations were instruments of salvation.

[robrecht]

Please note the following from the text below - "The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church."

Irrelevant since our debate has not been about the doctrine about the church but about the the church's view on the possibility of salvation for Protestants, Jews, Muslims, followers of other religions, and agnostic/atheists.

The press release is inaccurate because it does not say, nor did Dominus Iesus

[shunyadragon]

Part of the common ground was the obvious issue that the Protestant denominations were instruments of salvation.

Instruments of salvation, does not translate to Salvation. The only purpose of the 'instruments of salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethern' to Salvation in the One True Church.'

[shunyadragon]

Is it really too much to expect that you read the documents that you say support your misinterpretation?

Airball!!!! Pope Benedict's letter is cited and specific, and it clearly agrees with the press release.

[robrecht]

Instruments of salvation, does not translate to Salvation. The only purpose of the 'instruments of salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethern' to Salvation in the One True Church.'

According to your interpretation. Clearly the Catholic Church desires this and is trying to make this happen (not always effectively), but they do not limit God's purpose to this.

[shunyadragon]

Irrelevant since our debate has not been about the doctrine about the church but about the the church's view on the possibility of salvation for Protestants, Jews, Muslims, followers of other religions, and agnostic/atheists.

The press release is inaccurate because it does not say, nor did Dominus Iesus

Your playing the three Stooges, Duck, Bob and Weave. Pope Benedict' letter is specific. 'There is no change in Church Doctrine.

Again the purpose of 'Instruments of Salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethren' back to the 'One True Church' and Salvation within the Roman Church.

[shunyadragon]

According to your interpretation. Clearly the Catholic Church desires this and is trying to make this happen (not always effectively), but they do not limit God's purpose to this.

Of course, they do not limit 'God's purpose' in Salvation, but nonetheless, by Doctrine in the Vatican II 'There is no Salvation outside the Roman Church,' except as specifically described.

How about you come up with specific references for 'Salvation' outside that which is specifically defined in the Vatican II and the Constitution.

These seven authors? you mentioned, you have cited nothing from them nor even given their names. The reality is there are no seven specific authors.

"The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church." Pope Benedict XVI

[robrecht]

Your playing the three Stooges, Duck, Bob and Weave. Pope Benedict' letter is specific. 'There is no change in Church Doctrine.

Again the purpose of 'Instruments of Salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethren' back to the 'One True Church' and Salvation within the Roman Church.

Nice try, but why not finish your quote. There is no change in doctrine on the church, which is not our topic of discussion. The document does however refer to development of the doctrine as in deepening, making explicit what was previously only assumed, and clarifying what was previously uncertain.

[shunyadragon]

Nice try, but why not finish your quote. There is no change in doctrine on the church, which is not our topic of discussion. The document does however refer to development of the doctrine as in deepening, making explicit what was previously only assumed, and clarifying what was previously uncertain.

This does not represent a meaningful response. The question of 'Salvation' has never been uncertain, nor has the doctrine ever changed.

IT is very much the topic of the discussion. Yes, 'the document does however refer to development of the doctrine as in deepening, making explicit what was previously only assumed, and clarifying what was previously uncertain,' but this refers to the role of the church concerning ecumenism, NOT Salvation. Concerning the issue of 'Salvation Outside the Church' the documents clarified specifically who may be saved outside the Roman Church.

Again the purpose of 'Instruments of Salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethren' back to the 'One True Church' and Salvation within the Roman Church.

"The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church." Pope Benedict XVI

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

There are no other possibilities for salvation in Vatican II, nor the Catachism. You asked for references and I gave them to you.

Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego wrote this concerning 'Salvation outside the Church' is a sufficient reference to justify my case. He is a theologian of authority who cited the church fathers to support the case, and as far as I can find no objections to what he wrote. "However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

[robrecht]

Of course, they do not limit 'God's purpose' in Salvation, but nonetheless, by Doctrine in the Vatican II 'There is no Salvation outside the Roman Church,' except as specifically described.

How about you come up with specific references for 'Salvation' outside that which is specifically defined in the Vatican II and the Constitution.

These seven authors? you mentioned, you have cited nothing from them nor even given their names. The reality is there are no seven specific authors.

"The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church." Pope Benedict XVI

I already have but you resist the clear meaning. I could cite my sources on the seven principal authors, and I will later, but I think it is more important for you to back up your (implied?) claim that your interpretation was understood to be the intended meaning by the authors. If you did not intend such a claim, let me know.

[shunyadragon]

I already have but you resist the clear meaning. I could cite my sources on the seven principal authors, and I will later, but I think it is more important for you to back up your (implied?) claim that your interpretation was understood to be the intended meaning by the authors. If you did not intend such a claim, let me know.

No you have not, again be specific, your nebulous foggy implied claim has no substance whatsoever. My claims have been specifically and accurately cited, specifically defining 'Salvation,' yours have not. Again, and please respond with substance with references the refer specifically to 'Salvation.'

This does not represent a meaningful response. The question of 'Salvation' has never been uncertain, nor has the doctrine ever changed.

IT is very much the topic of the discussion. Yes, 'the document does however refer to development of the doctrine as in deepening, making explicit what was previously only assumed, and clarifying what was previously uncertain,' but this refers to the role of the church concerning ecumenism, NOT Salvation. Concerning the issue of 'Salvation Outside the Church' the documents clarified specifically who may be saved outside the Roman Church.

Again the purpose of 'Instruments of Salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethren' back to the 'One True Church' and Salvation within the Roman Church.

"The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church." Pope Benedict XVI

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

There are no other possibilities for salvation in Vatican II, nor the Catachism. You asked for references and I gave them to you.

Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego wrote this concerning 'Salvation outside the Church' is a sufficient reference to justify my case. He is a theologian of authority who cited the church fathers to support the case, and as far as I can find no objections to what he wrote. "However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."



Highlighted still waiting . . .

[robrecht]

This does not represent a meaningful response. The question of 'Salvation' has never been uncertain, nor has the doctrine ever changed.

IT is very much the topic of the discussion. Yes, 'the document does however refer to development of the doctrine as in deepening, making explicit what was previously only assumed, and clarifying what was previously uncertain,' but this refers to the role of the church concerning ecumenism, NOT Salvation.

Again the purpose of 'Instruments of Salvation' are to lead the 'separated brethren' back to the 'One True Church' and Salvation within the Roman Church.

"The response, based on the teaching of John XXIII and Paul VI, is very clear: the Second Vatican Council did not intend to change - and therefore has not changed - the previously held doctrine on the Church." Pope Benedict XVI

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

There are no other possibilities for salvation in Vatican II, nor the Catachism. You asked for references and I gave them to you.

Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego wrote this concerning 'Salvation outside the Church' is a sufficient reference to justify my case. He is a theologian of authority who cited the church fathers to support the case, and as far as I can find no objections to what he wrote. "However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

What is this, the tenth time you've cite these paragraphs from the catechism, which I pointed you to, by the way, to get you to understand that your source was not in fact an infallible document or the Roman church today, which you've still failed to admit, and now you will go on denying that your press report was inaccurate and should not replace a reading of the actual document. It would indeed help if you had a better understanding of the church's doctrine on the church, but I specifically excluded this from the topic of our discussion at the outset. If you claim this has been the topic of our discussion, then this is just another documented misunderstanding on your part. Your determination of the meaningfulness of my responses are no more reliable.