Originally posted by seer
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics
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1) not sure if tolerance is an "important" element for social cohesion (but it is necessary to varying degrees)---a set of common "values" are far more important ?....its because tolerance is not that important, totalitarian societies can have social cohesion....in fact, intolerance (such as making up an enemy or enforcing class/cast/race structures) can enhance social cohesion of the group.
2) There are elements of exclusion in all identity-constructs (otherwise they would not work as identity-constructs)---even non-theistic ones such as a nation-state excludes others---for example, the French have long excluded certain groups of Frenchmen from being fully "French"...etc. Americans have a history of viewing any new group of "Americans" with suspicion and mistrust---and some of the old groups such as African Americans are always the "other" in a system built on structural inequality....(which, right or wrong, is still a value)
...So within a greater identity-construct, there can be hierarchies (of privilege and exclusion) which become value structures of a society. These values (right and/or wrong) hold the paradigm---or the "civilization"/culture. This is the "soft-power" and one measure of power of a culture/civilization can be if it attracts others to give assent to its "values"/ways. 2 methods of attracting assent is through force or by persuasion---either one of these, if very successful, can lead to self destruction. A mono-culture can lead to stagnation which will lead to self-destruction (without dynamism and change---any paradigm/value structure will lose its relevancy) and a forced conversion will lead to rebellion....?.....
...the ideal situation would be to have diversity of cultures/value structures that create an environment of constructive competition....?......but diversity will inevitably create tensions---which is a necessary side-effect---the trick is not to avoid/ignore or try to force "toleration" of such tensions----but to engage with them constructively.....tensions caused by differences can be an important tool for positive change in some instances?Last edited by siam; 06-27-2017, 03:25 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Roy, I listed quite a few totalitarian regimes/empires some of which lasted for centuries. And China and Cuba are still totalitarian, the few ruling over the majority. Totalitarianism works - thanks for making my point. And Rome did well for centuries.
"Even today some of the most cohesive countries are religious - Muslim in fact. Democracies are much more messy with different factions at odds with each other. Much less cohesion. "
AFAICT your 'point' is that democracies lack social cohesion because they incorporate multiple political views, while Iran and Algeria have much better social cohesion despite periodically disintegrating in civil war and mass slaughter. So that's total bollocks.
Your other 'point' seems to be that democracies such as the UK and US, both of which have had uninterrupted government for well over a century, won't last as long as totalitarian regimes such as Cuba which has had its government overthrown half-a-dozen times over the same period. So that's also total bollocks.
The only point you're actually making is that you're either ignorant of history or willing to ignore events that don't fit your false views.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by seer View PostOh stop, they are all relatively cohesive now no matter their history.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Charles View PostStop with what? Giving facts about civillian massacres?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Roy View PostBollocks. A country that had its government overthrown 6 years ago, its opposition leader assassinated 4 years ago and was in a state of emergency 2 years ago is not relatively cohesive in comparison with western democracies.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Roy View PostWhat point? This one?
"Even today some of the most cohesive countries are religious - Muslim in fact. Democracies are much more messy with different factions at odds with each other. Much less cohesion. "
AFAICT your 'point' is that democracies lack social cohesion because they incorporate multiple political views, while Iran and Algeria have much better social cohesion despite periodically disintegrating in civil war and mass slaughter. So that's total bollocks.
Your other 'point' seems to be that democracies such as the UK and US, both of which have had uninterrupted government for well over a century, won't last as long as totalitarian regimes such as Cuba which has had its government overthrown half-a-dozen times over the same period. So that's also total bollocks.
The only point you're actually making is that you're either ignorant of history or willing to ignore events that don't fit your false views.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBollocks. A country that had its government overthrown 6 years ago, its opposition leader assassinated 4 years ago and was in a state of emergency 2 years ago is not relatively cohesive in comparison with western democracies.do you need a list (again) of totalitarian empires that lasted for centuries?And you only cherry picked a few of the Muslim countries I listed.Hell, look what is happening in the US right now, riots, Congressman and his aids shot, and remember our own Civil War.Democracies are inherently factious with different groups vying for power. James Madison understood this, to bad you don't.Last edited by Roy; 06-27-2017, 08:22 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIt's not nonsense, it's factual data that you are ignoring in favour of the insane idea that civil rebellion is social cohesion.
You haven't produced any such list. The few examples you did provide either haven't been around for centuries, or have histories of recurrent civil war and violent seizure of power. I used the examples you provided. If they don't stand up to scrutiny, that's your problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_empiresAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo idiot, there is social cohesion after such rebellions are put down. You know like after our Civil War.
At this point, your idea of 'social cohesion' is effectively meaningless since you've used it to cover everything from apartheid to usurpation to armed rebellion, and any claim you make about social cohesiveness can be ignored.
More nonsense, many of these Empires lasted much longer than the modern liberal states of today so far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_empires
I never said that Cuba will last longer than the US,Last edited by Roy; 06-27-2017, 11:28 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostOh, so now you want to include racial segregation, voter intimidation and fraud, institutionalised discrimination/racism and anti-miscegenation in 'social cohesion'.
At this point, your idea of 'social cohesion' is effectively meaningless since you've used it to cover everything from apartheid to usurpation to armed rebellion.
Which ones were totalitarian and socially cohesive throughout there existence?
You implied it, since the US is a democracy and Cuba is totalitarian: "Democracies, as practiced today, are fairly new - they may not survive into the future. We know that Totalitarian systems did work in history, for very long periods of times."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Originally posted by siam View Post1) not sure if tolerance is an "important" element for social cohesion (but it is necessary to varying degrees)---a set of common "values" are far more important ?....its because tolerance is not that important, totalitarian societies can have social cohesion....in fact, intolerance (such as making up an enemy or enforcing class/cast/race structures) can enhance social cohesion of the group.2) There are elements of exclusion in all identity-constructs (otherwise they would not work as identity-constructs)---even non-theistic ones such as a nation-state excludes others---for example, the French have long excluded certain groups of Frenchmen from being fully "French"...etc. Americans have a history of viewing any new group of "Americans" with suspicion and mistrust---and some of the old groups such as African Americans are always the "other" in a system built on structural inequality....(which, right or wrong, is still a value)...So within a greater identity-construct, there can be hierarchies (of privilege and exclusion) which become value structures of a society. These values (right and/or wrong) hold the paradigm---or the "civilization"/culture. This is the "soft-power" and one measure of power of a culture/civilization can be if it attracts others to give assent to its "values"/ways. 2 methods of attracting assent is through force or by persuasion---either one of these, if very successful, can lead to self destruction. A mono-culture can lead to stagnation which will lead to self-destruction (without dynamism and change---any paradigm/value structure will lose its relevancy) and a forced conversion will lead to rebellion....?.....
...the ideal situation would be to have diversity of cultures/value structures that create an environment of constructive competition....?......but diversity will inevitably create tensions---which is a necessary side-effect---the trick is not to avoid/ignore or try to force "toleration" of such tensions----but to engage with them constructively.....tensions caused by differences can be an important tool for positive change in some instances?
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell no, since these upheavals are usually short lived, some lead to change, but others, like in China just lead to different totalitarian regimes. The fact is Roy for most of human history most people have lived under such totalitarian rule and humanity survived and even thrived and cohesion was maintained - certainly maintained enough for survival, even growth.
Homer, I did not say that they were necessarily cohesive throughout their existence, democracies are often in upheaval, like ours as been for a good part of our history. The very problem with factions that Madison warned about.
I implied nothing, concerning Cuba lasting longer than the US, you are fibbing. I never even hinted that all totalitarian governments would last longer than all Democratic governments.
Regardless of the best form of maintaining social cohesion, the undeniable fact is that as social animals cohesion must be maintained in some form or other otherwise our survival as a species is at risk.
Our evolution was a process of survival via selection and gene propagation. And our morality (which is what this topic is all about) is an extension of (and supported by) evolutionary theory and exists to enable our survival via group living...whether in a totalitarian environment or a democratic one. Although, I think we'd all agree that the latter makes for more pleasant living for the majority.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, the fact that totalitarianism does work. It controls the general population. Yes the that often involves destroying opposition, but that brings cohesion.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt may well work but it's inherent violence in enforcing conformity often results in rebellion and uprisings. In any case, democratic systems are fairer for the majority and consequently more likely to remain stable.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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