A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

[seer]

It remains that the biased selective of citations does not reflect the view of the Baha'i Faith in the citations I provided.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr8

[Tassman]

No Tass, I'm not letting you off the hook.

you off the hook. Again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what? Waiting!

You constantly point to social cohesion as the goal for moral behavior

No, survives.

yet you don't personally believe that because you are perfectly fine with upsetting said cohesion for a cause you agree with. So even by your own lights cohesion can't be the bottom line. So what is?

[seer]

you off the hook. Again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what? Waiting!

No Tass, these values are not nebulous, read your New Testament. And they emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from.

No, survives.

But you can not even make the case that our survival is an objective moral good!

[/QUOTE]

See you moved from cohesion to justice. So cohesion is not enough, or the ultimate goal, but your 'nebulous' ideal of justice.

[Roy]

No Tass, these values are not nebulous, read your New Testament. And they emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from.

Not that seer will ever provide any evidence that this mind exists, or that it is the source of moral ideas.

[seer]

Not that seer will ever provide any evidence that this mind exists, or that it is the source of moral ideas.

Define evidence Roy...

[Tassman]

No Tass, these values are not nebulous, read your New Testament. And they emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from.

They merely emanated from the minds of the authors of the NT and biblical arguments are weak. They invalidly presuppose both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's own traditions about its origins.

But you can not even make the case that our survival is an objective moral good!

See you moved from cohesion to justice. So cohesion is not enough, or the ultimate goal, but your 'nebulous' ideal of justice.

[Roy]

not that seer will ever provide any evidence that this mind exists, or that it is the source of moral ideas.

define evidence roy...

q e d

[seer]

What is more important Tass, cohesion or justice? If you could have cohesion without justice, like in North Korea, that wouldn't be a moral wrong - correct? And what if the movement towards justice caused constant social upheaval? That would be bad thing - correct?

[shunyadragon]

What is more important Tass, cohesion or justice? If you could have cohesion without justice, like in North Korea, that wouldn't be a moral wrong - correct? And what if the movement towards justice caused constant social upheaval? That would be bad thing - correct?

How about like under Constantine?

[seer]

How about like under Constantine?

And your point is?

[shunyadragon]

And your point is?

Rulers often persecute, ethnically cleanse, and exterminate the opposition to preserve 'order and cohesion' throughout history from many different philosophical and religious perspectives. With Constantine and his son considered pagans and heathens as threat to 'order and cohesion' of Rome. Some Christian rulers like the Czars, of Europe it was Jews that were a threat to 'cohesion and order' and there were organized attempts to exterminate Jews as 'Christ killers.'

[seer]

Rulers often persecute, ethnically cleanse, and exterminate the opposition to preserve 'order and cohesion' throughout history from many different philosophical and religious perspectives. With Constantine and his son considered pagans and heathens as threat to 'order and cohesion' of Rome. Some Christian rulers like the Czars, of Europe it was Jews that were a threat to 'cohesion and order' and there were organized attempts to exterminate Jews as 'Christ killers.'

How does that answer the question I was asking Tass?

[Tassman]

What is more important Tass, cohesion or justice? If you could have cohesion without justice, like in North Korea, that wouldn't be a moral wrong - correct? And what if the movement towards justice caused constant social upheaval? That would be bad thing - correct?

[seer]

For the umpteenth time, the survival of the species is the most important thing in evolutionary terms. The natural evolution of human behaviour is to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.

So cohesion trumps justice?

What? You mean moral principles don't come from minds?

[shunyadragon]

How does that answer the question I was asking Tass?

You were being to selective and biased, as usual. You use extreme examples to justify your agenda. In history governments like North Korea ultimately fail. In human history, and in primates cohesion and justice dominate over time, and social cooperation is essential or the community and the species will not survive.