Originally posted by Tassman
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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'As far as you know' does not reflect the evidence that other higher mammals as having documented primitive morals and ethics. They following is a little long because you repeatedly reject or avoid the actual objective verifiable evidence offered in previous threads with many references:
Practical evidence from life lessons is sufficient to inform those with common sense. Animals have no intellectual capabilities. Because all animals possess behaviors, if one studies them long enough looking for evidence of moral or rational properties, one will certainly find something that looks like them--if not in actuality at least by imposing the moral capacity of humans on behaviors that look similar in chimps or gorillas.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Tass, we have not developed like monkeys. Where is the monkey Plato? 14,000 years or so ago
there was no known written language, primitive tools, primitive cave drawings, primitive dwellings, if any - we went from that to landing men on the moon. In the blink of a geological eye.
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Originally posted by Anomaly View PostScientists have been trying to "find" moral and rational properties in the higher animals for decades. How convincing should the evidence for moral behavior in animals be when it's conducted by people specifically looking for it? If moral properties are so apparent in brutes, why--after decades of sifting through data--are biologists just now "finding" it when those in other disciplines appear to have come up with nothing?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhere was the Stone Age Man Plato, or the Neanderthal Plato or the Homo erectus Plato or the Plato of ANY of the human species that coexisted on this planet 100,000 years ago?
That says no more than modern humans are more intelligent and capable of greater intellectual development than chimpanzees, just as chimpanzees are more intelligent and capable of greater intellectual development than monkeys...and so on down the evolutionary chain.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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You are reading human motives and ideals into animals. I doubt that monkey Bob is thinking, if I share my banana with monkey Joe, monkey Joe will share his banana with me tomorrow. Never mind the fact that monkey Joe is just as likely to steal monkey Bob's banana.Last edited by seer; 08-27-2017, 07:26 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Anomaly View PostAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
See above re genetic predisposition, instinct and higher intelligence accounting for the development of moral reasoning over time.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Anomaly View PostWhile some lower level psychological qualities have been documented in higher animals that are shared with humans, bold claims of their possessing morality in anything like the same sense found in humans always has been and remains today highly controversial, theoretical and largely unproven.
What your inclusion of such a dubious reference illustrates is the lengths those whose agenda is promote a supernatural origin for moral behaviours are willing to go. There is no credible evidence that human morality is the result of divine revelation. This is an act of faith. OTOH there is documented, observable evidence of higher primates displaying altruism, empathy, and gratitude within their communities. And, since these things all underpin moral behaviour they can be reasonably viewed as the precursors of human morality...especially given that we share similar brain biology and have similar needs as social animals.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Tass, does not chance the fact. You rail against white supremacists, Trump, neo-nazis, etc... yet, as you said, natural selection determined who and what we are. So when you rail against these men you are, at bottom, railing against nature, what nature created. So again, why do you hate nature so much.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIf you accept, as you claim, that antecedent forces have a role in our decision-making processes then what you tout as Libertarian free will is in fact compatabilism, with which I have no quarrel. I have said this several times. OTOH, if you're touting LFW as the concept that man is an autonomous being, who operates independently of any antecedent forces then this is logically incoherent. So which is the position that you are supporting?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are reading human motives and ideals into animals. I doubt that monkey Bob is thinking, if I share my banana with monkey Joe, monkey Joe will share his banana with me tomorrow. Never mind the fact that monkey Joe is just as likely to steal monkey Bob's banana.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostIf "[...]monkey Bob is thinking, if I share my banana with monkey Joe, monkey Joe will share his banana with me tomorrow." then that is not really ethical thinking anyway, so your constructed example does not get you very far which seems to be on purpose. But it remindend me of a funny quote by Nietzsche: "Principle of "Christian love": it insists upon being well paid in the end."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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What your inclusion of such a dubious reference illustrates is the lengths those whose agenda is promote a supernatural origin for moral behaviours are willing to go. There is no credible evidence that human morality is the result of divine revelation. This is an act of faith. OTOH there is documented, observable evidence of higher primates displaying altruism, empathy, and gratitude within their communities. And, since these things all underpin moral behaviour they can be reasonably viewed as the precursors of human morality...especially given that we share similar brain biology and have similar needs as social animals.
Assuming the "dubious reference" was the bit about the person claiming the gorilla was baited until it "showed" empathy, I noted in last post couldn't remember the source and presented it as such. There is also a link to an account that lends credence to the story of this sort of manipulation by those pursuing an agenda. I hope you're not pretending the scientific community is pure as the driven snow in their individual or collective ethics, Tassman.
The salient points imo are, 1) There are plenty of credible reports available of the controversial nature of decades-long attempts to place morality--precursory or otherwise--in higher animals, 2) there is an obvious commitment by a largely secular scientific community of energy and resources to "proving" their naturalist worldview, and 3) the bias and motivation that naturally attaches to such commitments is reasonably explained by the spiritual mechanics of the Christian worldview provided in earlier posts. Secularism uses "natural" psychological reasons to explain away religious commitment while the theology of a value-driven motivation attests to what drives the psychological mechanism itself. The real precursor in these matters is more rationally and coherently explained from the theological view.
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