Originally posted by seer
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Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Free will.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAs as we go here, everyone is only you in this thread,Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny, Dennett in his own words says he does not believe that we can do otherwise, and according to him that is not necessary for free will. I mean what more do you need than his own words? Are you really this dishonest? I mean the title of the paper is "I CAN NOT DO OTHERWISE - SO WHAT?"
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe subject of the thread has passed you by in the dust of ancient agendas, and clinging to the incoherent libertarian free will, which you have not coherently defined. All you have asserted is there are different definitions. Oh! how meaningless of an argument.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostDoesn't matter, Dennett still does not agree with you that we can do other wise. Compatibilism asserts that free will and determinism are compatible - but that depends on how you define free will. If it is the ability to do otherwise then they are not compatible.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI define ability to choose otherwise as human free will choice, and Dennett acknowledges that humans have choice, and the outcome of human choices is not inevitable, You tend to split frog hairs and selectively cite sources to justify your agenda, and will not acknowledge that philosophy of compatibilism indeed considers humans make free will choices with in the limits and context of determinism.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell since Dennett does not agree with the ability to do otherwise - how then are we free? How can we be both free and determined? They can assert this all they want, but how is that possible?
Dennett is only one philosopher of many that advocates a form of compatibilism, and not the only explanation for the belief that a limited form of free will emerges from determinism within limited choice.
An interesting example is the choice of church or religious or non-religious belief system in our culture. In some other cultures the choice of an alternate belief system is punishable by death, or prison so people rarely make an alternate choice. In our culture the search is far more open, but nonetheless, but a limited number make the choice outside the accepted sense of community of the culture, and yes a limited number of people make choices'outside the box,' but yes they do so dominently seeking a 'sense of belonging' decision that leads most people to make a choice that is comfortable to them. Many people do indeed 'church shop' within this limited range of choices to pick one that they are comfortable with. They are not deterministic robots, but by far most indeed make limited free will choices within a limited number churches that meet the limited predetermined social and cultural framework. Of course, the majority make the choices of their parents, and grandparents, still within Dennett's 'elbow room.'
The problems with free will in this deterministic chain of events is the reason I describe it as 'potential free will.'
Within the deterministic causal chain of events within a cultural and social there are limited free will choices that people make. Dennett describes this as 'elbow room' within a deterministic frame work where people make choices.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, but the fact that our choices matter, and that they are one of the steps, or an integral part of the causal chain, does not in any sense explain how those choices free. Every event, and or choice made, in the causal stream matters, but mattering doesn't make them free. If I choose to murder someone, it matters, but if I only did so because that choice was an integral part of the causal stream, an action for which I could not do otherwise, then it wasn't what we would define as a free will action.
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But wouldn't you say that the social acculturation process, being one of the steps in the causal chain, is also deterministic? You and shunya keep asserting limited free will, as opposed to hard determinism, but i'm just not seeing a coherent explanation as to just where free will enters the picture from the compatibilists perspective.
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The ability to do otherwise Tass (which is how I define free will) is not an incoherent concept. And in case it escaped you, not all Libertarians agree on all points, one thing that is key though is that we have the ability to do otherwise. Without that ability there is no "genuine free will" - how could there be?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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[QUOTE=JimL;464060]But wouldn't you say that the social acculturation process, being one of the steps in the causal chain, is also deterministic? [quote]
No.
You and shunya keep asserting limited free will, as opposed to hard determinism, but i'm just not seeing a coherent explanation as to just where free will enters the picture from the compatibilists perspective.
You are presently not responding to the previous posts that demonstrate the human ability to make choices outside the strict definition of determinism, therefore some version of compatibilism is the most logical, rational and scientific choice based on the evidence.
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[QUOTE=shunyadragon;464354]Originally posted by JimL View PostBut wouldn't you say that the social acculturation process, being one of the steps in the causal chain, is also deterministic?No.
It enters simply by the evidence I demonstrated by the history of people choosing their religious belief or non-belief by exercising their limited free will within deterministic factors that limit their choices, but yes for personal reasons of free will choice, some make choices 'outside the box' of causal chains of determinism, which than become part of the causal chains of determinism.
You are presently not responding to the previous posts that demonstrate the human ability to make choices outside the strict definition of determinism, therefore some version of compatibilism is the most logical, rational and scientific choice based on the evidence.Last edited by JimL; 07-31-2017, 10:54 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut wouldn't you say that the social acculturation process, being one of the steps in the causal chain, is also deterministic? You and shunya keep asserting limited free will, as opposed to hard determinism, but i'm just not seeing a coherent explanation as to just where free will enters the picture from the compatibilists perspective.
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Still not getting exactly what you mean by limited Tass. Limited by what exactly? When we are faced with a choice, lets say there are 15 different flavors of ice cream to choose from, how exactly is the choice I opt for limited? Am I free to choose any flavor amonst the 15, or is my choice limited to just a few out of the fifteen, or just one? And if so, what is it exactly that limits, or free's my choices to one, two, three, or ten of the 15 choices available? My understanding of determinism is that the choices "I" make would be the effects of antecedent causes, not of a free will. So, if I am free to choose any of the 15 flavors available, then I obviously have free will, but if I am limited to choose only one particular flavor out of the fifteen then I'm determined. So what does compatibilism say, that I can choose otherwise, but there are only a limited number amongst the 15 that are available for me to choose? If so, why? Why a limited number of choices, rather than just one?Last edited by JimL; 08-01-2017, 01:54 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostStill not getting exactly what you mean by limited Tass. Limited by what exactly? When we are faced with a choice, lets say there are 15 different flavors of ice cream to choose from, how exactly is the choice I opt for limited? Am I free to choose any flavor amonst the 15, or is my choice limited to just a few out of the fifteen, or just one? And if so, what is it exactly that limits, or free's my choices to one, two, three, or ten of the 15 choices available? My understanding of determinism is that the choices "I" make would be the effects of antecedent causes, not of a free will. So, if I am free to choose any of the 15 flavors available, then I obviously have free will, but if I am limited to choose only one particular flavor out of the fifteen then I'm determined. So what does compatibilism say, that I can choose otherwise, but there are only a limited number amongst the 15 that are available for me to choose? If so, why? Why a limited number of choices, rather than just one?
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