Originally posted by firstfloor
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Do the laws of the universe exist under materialism?
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I am distressed at having to agree with JimL, firstfloor, and Shunyadragon.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe laws of the universe exist indifferent and regardless of which philosophy or theology we believe.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI believe the question in the OP is whether or not the physical laws have some sort of independent existence from the materialistic world in which they are found. As if the world were designed using such pre-existing laws. If that were true, then the laws exist in and of themselves, but it isn't true, and the laws don't self exist, at least there is no evidence or reason to believe so, they are simply human terms descriptive of the nature of the materialistic world.
I hope this clarifies my position.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-07-2017, 07:38 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf you follow my posts and the concepts of Natural Laws determined by science are simply human descriptions of the Laws of the Universe, which indeed self exist indifferent to human philosophy and theology.
I hope this clarifies my position.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, but there are laws and there are laws, there are extrinsic laws which exist apart from that which is subject to them, such as are human laws, and there are intrinsic laws which simply define the nature of the subject itself. I think that the OP is asking if physical laws are somehow extrinsic, existing in their own right, separate from matter. His insinuation being, I believe, that the material world was designed according to pre-existing laws.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-07-2017, 08:50 PM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYes the laws of the universe exist under materialism; there is no logically coherent alternative to materialism.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNonsense. Some of materialism's implications are incredibly problematic.
Just as one example, in philosophy of mind, materialism really doesn't explain qualia particularly well.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNonsense. Some of materialism's implications are incredibly problematic. Just as one example, in philosophy of mind, materialism really doesn't explain qualia particularly well.
The facts are that science has made significant advances in explaining the brain-mind relationship, and there is no reason that they will not continue to make advances in the future.
The bottom line is there is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for the existence of the soul nor any other source of the mind, consciousness nor qualia than the brain itself.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-08-2017, 06:29 AM.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNonsense. Some of materialism's implications are incredibly problematic. Just as one example, in philosophy of mind, materialism really doesn't explain qualia particularly well.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostAnd if they do, how? Are they some material substance? I don't really see how they can exist under a materialist paradigm.
The phrase "laws of the universe" refers to human-language descriptions of observed behaviors within the universe. So, these descriptions don't have physical existence (beyond the physical configurations of the brains conceiving them, if mind-body duality is not true). However, if you are asking whether the behaviors which they describe exist, that seems patently obvious. For example, in this case, to ask if Gravity exists is akin to asking if massive bodies are actually attracted to one another in the real world. The answer to that seems to be "yes."
Originally posted by psstein View PostThe physical laws do independently exist, just like mathematics exists in some sort of Platonic sense. The mathematical description of these laws doesn't exist independent of mind, because they're based on inferences from physical events."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFirst, the Laws of Nature that have evolved through the falsification of theories and hypothesis by the Philosophy of Methodological Naturalism do not 'define' the nature of objects nor the ultimate Laws of our physical existence. They are 'descriptive' as is the math that is used in the tool box of science. I believe the actual ultimate Laws of our physical existence exist in their own right as does the eternal nature of our physical existence. This, I believe, would be true regardless of whether God exists or not.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell, first of all the laws do not evolve, what we call laws are found, but if you believe that the material world is eternal, and that the laws are descriptive of that world then the laws are nothing more than human language, made up terms, to describe the regularities found in that world. You may be saying somewhat the same thing, I'm just not sure. Do you mean to say that the laws would exist even if the world they describe didn't exist?
Yes, the ultimate Laws of Nature would exist regardless of whether or not what they describe exists or not. I do believe our physical existence is eternal and has always existed as well as the ultimate Laws of Nature.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-09-2017, 11:30 AM.
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