Non-theistic Moral Realism

[seer]

Yes. NMN is based on a Utilitarian Teleology. It is directly based on objectively verifiable observations of the nature of human morals and ethics and the evolution of the species with the purpose of the survival of the species. Without a cooperative social and culture structure with a system of morals and ethics the human species would not survive.

Shuny, why is the survival of our species an objective moral good?

Good question? Who does consider this the 'goal of the theory?' . . . and unhappiness can be a by product of NMN. It is not the goal of NMN.

'General Hppainess?' may be a positive by product of NMN, but it is not a goal of NMN.

General happiness is the goal of Utilitarianism, that is what the theory is about. Did you even look at the link? And that goal is subjective.

Yes you are, and you have always argued for Theistic objective morality as opposed to NMN.

FALSE, I don't believe in objective morality! God's law is subjective to Him. What I have argued for here is that if God exists there logically could be a purpose or plan for humankind (a teleology). But that if God does not exist there is no plan or purpose for humankind since - nature has no teleology for humankind.

[Adrift]

Good reference concerning what I 'believe.' I am not arguing this in this thread, because it is a 'belief,' my belief. I am arguing for the viability and possibility of NMN being an explanation of human morals and ethics. I made this clear before.

But the Baha'i Faith does not take these things on just baseless belief,

Source: Selections From the Writings of the B�b

THE evidence set forth by God can never be compared with the evidences produced by any one of the peoples and kindreds of the earth; and beyond a shadow of doubt no evidence is set forth by God save through the One Who is appointed as His supreme Testimony. Moreover, the proof of revealed verses doth, alone and of itself, conclusively demonstrate the utter impotence of all created things on earth, for this is a proof which hath proceeded from God and shall endure until the Day of Resurrection.

And if anyone should reflect on the appearance of this Tree, he will undoubtedly testify to the loftiness of the Cause of God. For if one from whose life only twenty-four years have passed, and who is devoid of those sciences wherein all are learned, now reciteth verses after such fashion without thought or hesitation, writes a thousand verses of prayer in the course of five hours without pause of the pen, and produceth commentaries and learned treatises on such lofty themes as the true understanding of God and of the oneness of His Being, in a manner which doctors and philosophers confess surpasseth their power of understanding, then there is no doubt that all that hath been manifested is divinely inspired. Notwithstanding their life-long diligent study, what pains do these divines take when writing a single line in Arabic! Yet after such efforts the result is but words which are unworthy of mention. All these things are for a proof unto the people; otherwise the religion of God is too mighty and glorious for anyone to comprehend through aught but itself; rather by it all else is understood.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Proclamation of Bah�u�ll�h by Bah�u�ll�h

Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: The Hidden Words by Bah�u�ll�h

I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest, and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all worlds.

© Copyright Original Source

All your prophets teach that God and his commandments can be known by the evidence found in nature, and in the miracles of his prophets, and not by faith alone.

[Adrift]

FALSE, I don't believe in objective morality! God's law is subjective to Him. What I have argued for here is that if God exists there logically could be a purpose or plan for humankind (a teleology). But that if God does not exist there is no plan or purpose for humankind since - nature has no teleology for humankind.

God's morality is not subjective to him. God cannot do other than his own nature, which makes them objective.

[shunyadragon]

But the Baha'i Faith does not take these things on just baseless belief,

Source: Selections From the Writings of the B�b

THE evidence set forth by God can never be compared with the evidences produced by any one of the peoples and kindreds of the earth; and beyond a shadow of doubt no evidence is set forth by God save through the One Who is appointed as His supreme Testimony. Moreover, the proof of revealed verses doth, alone and of itself, conclusively demonstrate the utter impotence of all created things on earth, for this is a proof which hath proceeded from God and shall endure until the Day of Resurrection.

And if anyone should reflect on the appearance of this Tree, he will undoubtedly testify to the loftiness of the Cause of God. For if one from whose life only twenty-four years have passed, and who is devoid of those sciences wherein all are learned, now reciteth verses after such fashion without thought or hesitation, writes a thousand verses of prayer in the course of five hours without pause of the pen, and produceth commentaries and learned treatises on such lofty themes as the true understanding of God and of the oneness of His Being, in a manner which doctors and philosophers confess surpasseth their power of understanding, then there is no doubt that all that hath been manifested is divinely inspired. Notwithstanding their life-long diligent study, what pains do these divines take when writing a single line in Arabic! Yet after such efforts the result is but words which are unworthy of mention. All these things are for a proof unto the people; otherwise the religion of God is too mighty and glorious for anyone to comprehend through aught but itself; rather by it all else is understood.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Proclamation of Bah�u�ll�h by Bah�u�ll�h

Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: The Hidden Words by Bah�u�ll�h

I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest, and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all worlds.

© Copyright Original Source

All your prophets teach that God and his commandments can be known by the evidence found in nature, and in the miracles of his prophets, and not by faith alone.

Good reference concerning what I 'believe.' I am not arguing this in this thread, because it is a 'belief,' my belief. I am arguing for the viability and possibility of NMN being an explanation of human morals and ethics. I made this clear before.

[seer]

God's morality is not subjective to him. God cannot do other than his own nature, which makes them objective.

I would disagree, God's law could be both subjective to Him and immutable. But it would be objective to humankind, and thanks for your posts to Shuny.

[shunyadragon]

God's morality is not subjective to him. God cannot do other than his own nature, which makes them objective.

God's morality? We are able to comprehend God's will, and attributes through God's Spiritual Law and Teachings. Morality cannot describe God's nature from the human perspective. That is ridiculous.

[Trout]

Non theistic moral relativism is like non alcoholic whiskey. Unsatisfying and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

[seer]

Non theistic moral relativism is like non alcoholic whiskey. Unsatisfying and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Hehe...

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=seer;421386]Shuny, why is the survival of our species an objective moral good?

General happiness is the goal of Utilitarianism, that is what the theory is about. Did you even look at the link? And that goal is subjective.

Yes, I looked at the link.

No it is not. The goal of the Utilitarian Teleology of NMN is the survival of the species.

FALSE, I don't believe in objective morality! God's law is subjective to Him. What I have argued for here is that if God exists there logically could be a purpose or plan for humankind (a teleology). But that if God does not exist there is no plan or purpose for humankind since - nature has no teleology for humankind.

There is no possibility of comparing a world with God and a world with God to make this comparison. It is simply an assertion on your part. Again, the Utilitarian Teleology for morals and ethics of humanity is the survival of the species.

Nature has a Utilitarian Teleology and purpose and objective for humanity based on the objective verifiable observation of humanity and ethics of the history and nature of societies and cultures of humanity.

[seer]

Nature has a Utilitarian Teleology and purpose and objective for humanity based on the objective verifiable observation of humanity and ethics of the history and nature of societies and cultures of humanity.

What? Nature does not even care if we survive, so how can there be a plan or purpose when nature herself cares nothing for our survival? You are not making sense.

[seer]

Yes, I looked at the link.

Again, why is the survival of our species an objective moral good?

No it is not. The goal of the Utilitarian Teleology of NMN is the survival of the species.

Again, that is subjective - why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?

[Adrift]

I would disagree, God's law could be both subjective to Him and immutable.

How can they be subjective to him if he cannot do other than his nature? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. By asserting that God's own law could be subjective to him, you rub very close to that side of Euthyphro's dilemma that states that the good that God commands is arbitrary. On the other side of the dilemma we rule out that God is subject to the good as something separate from himself, by pointing out that the good is tied to God's own nature.

But it would be objective to humankind, and thanks for your posts to Shuny.

Looks like I broke him again. He's in repeat mode.

[shunyadragon]

What? Nature does not even care if we survive, so how can there be a plan or purpose when nature herself cares nothing for our survival? You are not making sense.

'Caring' is an anecdotal subjective anthropomorphic reason, and would not apply in a Utilitarian Teleology for morals and ethics.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=seer;421413]Again, why is the survival of our species an objective moral good?

. . . because by the 'objective verifiable evidence that it is good for the human species to survive. What is morally good contributes to the survival of the human species.

Again, that is subjective - why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?

Survival of the species and life is good.

[seer]

'Caring' is an anecdotal subjective anthropomorphic reason, and would not apply in a Utilitarian Teleology for morals and ethics.

Shuny, you are claiming that nature has a plan or purpose for humankind (teleology). But it doesn't, it makes no difference to nature if we survive or not. Just as it makes no difference to nature whether past species went extinct or not. Teleology by definition means a plan or purpose, natural forces do not plan nor do they create a purpose for us.

Survival of the species and life is good.

Sure, that is your subjective belief.