Non-theistic Moral Realism

[seer]

The range of choices are there, but limited by perdetermined factors, which is the reality of human existence. Desires and instincts, are not the only things that limit our decision making process, but they indeed limit the rang of our potential range of decisions.

So in any give situation, or most situations, do we have the power of contrary choice? If so then that is Libertarian, if not then it is all still determined.

[shunyadragon]

So in any give situation, or most situations, do we have the power of contrary choice? If so then that is Libertarian, if not then it is all still determined.

NO! The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

[seer]

NO! The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

I have no idea what you mean. Do you?

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what you mean. Do you?

Exactly what I stated!!!!

The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

[seer]

Exactly what I stated!!!!

The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

Do you believe that we have the power of contrary choice, limited or not?

[shunyadragon]

Do you believe that we have the power of contrary choice, limited or not?

Exactly what I stated!!!!

The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

[seer]

Exactly what I stated!!!!

The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

So you do believe in contrary choices? Then welcome to the libertarian camp.

[shunyadragon]

So you do believe in contrary choices? Then welcome to the libertarian camp.

Exactly what I stated!!!!

The contrary choices are still limited by predetermined factors. This is more compatible with compatibilism, but is also possible in determinism.

I am in the compatibilism camp.

[JimL]

The range of choices are there, but limited by perdetermined factors, which is the reality of human existence. Desires and instincts, are not the only things that limit our decision making process, but they indeed limit the rang of our potential range of decisions.

That there are a range of choices is not the argument, obviously there are a range of choices, but the debate has to do with the chooser, not the range of choices. If out of that range of choices there is only one choice that the chooser is pre-determined to make, then it doesn't matter what range of choices he has before him. You need to explain what you mean by "ones choices are limited by pre-determined factors." Limited in what way, and in what sense are you equating "Limited" with "free will"?

[shunyadragon]

That there are a range of choices is not the argument, obviously there are a range of choices, but the debate has to do with the chooser, not the range of choices. If out of that range of choices there is only one choice that the chooser is pre-determined to make, then it doesn't matter what range of choices he has before him. You need to explain what you mean by "ones choices are limited by pre-determined factors." Limited in what way, and in what sense are you equating "Limited" with "free will"?

I believe by the evidence the range of choices remains, and not only 'one choice' in free will decisions in both compatibilism and determinism. That is simply the obvious matter of fact of human decion making process. The problem with the libertarian free will perspective, as Tassman, rightly pointed out, How do you determine if your decision is truly a free will decision or the product of a chain of decision and past events that limit the possible choices.

[Tassman]

You can disagree all you want, you are still wrong - how can you be free but still determined?

How can YOU exercise libertarian free-will in a vacuum without being influenced by the antecedent events of your entire life that comprise your subconscious?

[shunyadragon]

That there are a range of choices is not the argument, obviously there are a range of choices, but the debate has to do with the chooser, not the range of choices. If out of that range of choices there is only one choice that the chooser is pre-determined to make, then it doesn't matter what range of choices he has before him. You need to explain what you mean by "ones choices are limited by pre-determined factors." Limited in what way, and in what sense are you equating "Limited" with "free will"?

I read this over a little closer, and thought I would try to give a better answer. 'In what way?' Well, genetics, culture, conditioning when raised, and instinct behavioral nature of being human all equate to limiting factors in our decision making process.

An example is the choice of homosexuality, or gender choices. Genetics is indeed the dominant limiting factor on how each individual decides whether their gender, and preference of homosexual or straight life style. It does not determine that there is only 'one choice.' The argument that one's gender is determined by what is on your birth certificate is an example of a cultural factor that that influences one's choice, but genetics can be an over riding factor that determines the range of one's choices.

[seer]

How can YOU exercise libertarian free-will in a vacuum without being influenced by the antecedent events of your entire life that comprise your subconscious?

So says the sock puppet who has no control over what he thinks or says...

[JimL]

I read this over a little closer, and thought I would try to give a better answer. 'In what way?' Well, genetics, culture, conditioning when raised, and instinct behavioral nature of being human all equate to limiting factors in our decision making process.

An example is the choice of homosexuality, or gender choices. Genetics is indeed the dominant limiting factor on how each individual decides whether their gender, and preference of homosexual or straight life style. It does not determine that there is only 'one choice.' The argument that one's gender is determined by what is on your birth certificate is an example of a cultural factor that that influences one's choice, but genetics can be an over riding factor that determines the range of one's choices.

Sure, but that is not what is meant by determinism shunya. The same choices exist in both determinism and free will, but in determinism, even though the same options exist, only one of those options are available to the chooser. What you are suggesting is that we are influenced in our decision making process by antecedent causes, and i think that goes without saying. But that is not determinism.

[shunyadragon]

Sure, but that is not what is meant by determinism shunya. The same choices exist in both determinism and free will, but in determinism, even though the same options exist, only one of those options are available to the chooser. What you are suggesting is that we are influenced in our decision making process by antecedent causes, and i think that goes without saying. But that is not determinism.

False concerning determinism, by definition it does not necessarily disallow possible choices in any given situation based on anticedent chains of events or situations. There are of course variations in the philosophical view of determinism. I prefer compatibilism which is more flexible by definition. Seer rejects both as determinism and without choice. Neither proposes a robotic human world without possible choices, but those limited possible choices are determined by anticedent events, circumstances, and the laws of Nature.

Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/#DetHumAct

Traditionally determinism has been given various, usually imprecise definitions. This is only problematic if one is investigating determinism in a specific, well-defined theoretical context; but it is important to avoid certain major errors of definition. In order to get started we can begin with a loose and (nearly) all-encompassing definition as follows:

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

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Beyond this simple definition there are various philosophies that have evolved out of determinism.

Compatabilism, which came from the basic assumption determinism of natural law may be considered an alternate view where determinism based on natural law exists, but variations in the outcomes, and the decision making process has more room for the concept of alternative outcomes, which I argue for, better explains the possible choices of gender identity, and sexual orientation where libertarian free will fails.