Non-theistic Moral Realism

[seer]

True, but again there is always the possibility of multiple decisions and outcomes. The outcome is the issue concerning the chain of events. As usual your presenting an incoherent argument.

OK, if you agree that every outcome or decision is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions then they are all determined. And where is my argument incoherent since you just agreed with me. The wind blows, the branch does not fall, the wind blows the branch falls and hits you on the head. Different possible outcomes, but one outcome is just as determined as the other- it just depends on the antecedent conditions.

Again, you have failed to respond to the problem of the Theist views of various forms of determinism, and by the way scriptural reference that imply a rigid determinism and indeed a fatalism.

But I don't hold that to a theological determinism, you know that. So why are you asking me? I am not a Calvinist or Augustinian. I interpret scripture through an Arminian framework.

[shunyadragon]

OK, if you agree that every outcome or decision is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions then they are all determined. And where is my argument incoherent since you just agreed with me. The wind blows, the branch does not fall, the wind blows the branch falls and hits you on the head. Different possible outcomes, but one outcome is just as determined as the other- it just depends on the antecedent conditions.

. . . because you argue that it is some sort of robotic rigid determinism with no room for choice, and as in the reference I gave there are variations of determinism including compatibilism which do not support this.

The reality is humans are indeed limited in many ways to the possible choices they make regardless, and it is difficult if not impossible for humans from the human perspective to know their choices are in reality a product of their 'free will,' because there are so many limiting factors that restrict our decision making process.

My philosophy speaking here; Personally I believe there is a degree of potential free will, but in reality humans do not exercise that potential. Most are ike 'Elephants held by a thread.'

We have a will, but it is not necessarily free.



But I don't hold that to a theological determinism, you know that. So why are you asking me? I am not a Calvinist or Augustinian. I interpret scripture through an Arminian framework.[/QUOTE]

[seer]

. . . because you argue that it is some sort of robotic rigid determinism with no room for choice, and as in the reference I gave there are variations of determinism including compatibilism which do not support this.

What do you mean by choice? Are not all our choices determined by antecedent conditions?

[shunyadragon]

What do you mean by choice?

There is often a range of possible choices for any given situation. which is in reality what really happens.

Are not all our [possible] choices determined by antecedent conditions?

Yes.

[Tassman]

No Tass, my underlying objection is that if determinism is true we have zero control.

This fatalistic scenario of yours is notNOT

All our beliefs and thoughts are determined, true or not, right or wrong. There is no freedom of thought. You believe what the natural non-rational forces dictate that you believe. Then there is your feigned moral outrage - you act like tribalism or Nationalism or deeply held religious beliefs are somehow bad things. Well no, they are neither good or bad, right or wrong - they just are. With no more real moral significance than a fly pooping on your food. It is all just nature in motion.

How many times have you C&P this erroneous nonsense of yours seer?

[Tassman]

Shuny are human decisions necessitated by antecedent events and conditions? No matter the outcome?

Seriously! Please explain how this can work?

[seer]

Seriously! Please explain how this can work?

Good, so you agree that if you are correct then everything we think do or say is determined by antecedent conditions, and if we are moving towards nationalism or tribalism, if we murder or rape it is all due to natural forces dictating our every act or thought.

[seer]

There is often a range of possible choices for any given situation. which is in reality what really happens.

Yes.

So it doesn't matter what possible choices we have it is still all determined, all the way through.

[seer]

How many times have you C&P this erroneous nonsense of yours seer?

Tell me Tass exactly what is wrong in this statement, be specific:

All our beliefs and thoughts are determined, true or not, right or wrong. There is no freedom of thought. You believe what the natural non-rational forces dictate that you believe. Then there is your feigned moral outrage - you act like tribalism or Nationalism or deeply held religious beliefs are somehow bad things. Well no, they are neither good or bad, right or wrong - they just are. With no more real moral significance than a fly pooping on your food. It is all just nature in motion.

[shunyadragon]

Tell me Tass exactly what is wrong in this statement, be specific:

All our beliefs and thoughts are determined, true or not, right or wrong. There is no freedom of thought. You believe what the natural non-rational forces dictate that you believe. Then there is your feigned moral outrage - you act like tribalism or Nationalism or deeply held religious beliefs are somehow bad things. Well no, they are neither good or bad, right or wrong - they just are. With no more real moral significance than a fly pooping on your food. It is all just nature in motion.

Incomplete

There is a possible range of choices within any given event or situation. The above indicates that there is not a possible range of choices.

Interesting problem; Given the fact that many religions, churches and beliefs have many conflicting and contradictory belief, and 90%+ percent of all people choose the belief of parents and peers. What criteria are they using to make their choice?

[shunyadragon]

But I don't hold that to a theological determinism, you know that. So why are you asking me? I am not a Calvinist or Augustinian. I interpret scripture through an Arminian framework.

I am asking you, because your belief in Arminian framework does not resolve the problem of determinism in the Theistic worldview where everything in the future is set in concrete by God's foreknowledge.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

God's foreknowledge of the future is exhaustive and complete, and therefore the future is certain and not contingent on human action. God does not determine the future, but He does know it. God's certainty and human contingency are compatible.

© Copyright Original Source

First, in this belief Free Will is first limited by 'Original Sin,' and than God's foreknowledge of the future is exhaustive and complete, therefore the assertion of libertarian free will is a mere illusion, and human future choices are already fixed by God's foreknowledge.

I believe in 'Open Theism' which allows more real 'potential' free will choices than the predominant Christian beliefs of versions Arminian, and Calvinism.

[seer]

Incomplete

There is a possible range of choices within any given event or situation. The above indicates that there is not a possible range of choices.

No it is not incomplete since every choice is still determined. No matter what the options are. The wind blows, the branch either falls or doesn't. Antecedent conditions determine the outcome, just as antecedent conditions determine our actual choice, no matter the possible options.

[shunyadragon]

So it doesn't matter what possible choices we have it is still all determined, all the way through.

Yes,it does matter.There are possible choices.

[shunyadragon]

No it is not incomplete since every choice is still determined. No matter what the options are. The wind blows, the branch either falls or doesn't. Antecedent conditions determine the outcome, just as antecedent conditions determine our actual choice, no matter the possible options.

It was as a matter of fact incomplete as cited, because it ignored the issue of possible choices.

The possible choices still matter. You are still avoiding the obvious nature of our natural reality and the objective evidence that supports it.

[seer]

Yes,it does matter.There are possible choices.

No, there are not. The tree branch does not decide whether it falls or not, that is determined by antecedent conditions. Just as every choice you make is determined antecedent conditions. And these antecedent conditions make the choice for you.