Compatibalism

[shunyadragon]

Interesting topic to think about. It seems to me that an important component in the process would be goal/motive. That teleology is a most important link in the free will/deterministic connection. That it comes down to what outcome do we want. My ability to eat a piece of cake may be removed from me if I want to be an Olympic sprinter or simply to improve my chances of living longer But it is still a determined fact that I will die some day . We may argue over humanity's affect on climate change and thus inhibit free will with laws, but ultimately we face heat death in the distant future regardless. So it seems to me that what we want to create individually and collectively is the "determining" factor in our free will choices. What we really, really desire in our heart will determine our choices so for me an interesting question is what biological/environmental factors shape those desires? Can they be changed? How? What we believe to be true, our "faith", is hugely important. At least for me, when I think along these lines it strengthens my faith in God and that the Bible is truth.

Curious how are the potential of Global Warming remotely related to ultimate heat death of our planet hundreds of millions of years in the future.

More comments to follow. . .

[seer]

You are certainly entitled to your view...it's my view that this would be "paradoxical". This to me is like the old... "God able to make a rock so big even He can't move it"...It just doesn't make sense...

I don't know, I think Molinism, which is my position, comes pretty close to reconciling this.

[Jude]

Curious how are the potential of Global Warming remotely related to ultimate heat death of our planet hundreds of millions of years in the future.

More comments to follow. . .

The point that I am trying to make is that we make immediate choices even though ultimate outcomes are determined. These choices are freely ours to make but determinism holds sway.

[shunyadragon]

The point that I am trying to make is that we make immediate choices even though ultimate outcomes are determined. These choices are freely ours to make but determinism holds sway.

I consider it a given that determinism dominates human behavior and choices but the problem becomes which choices and to what degree do we freely make choices. Both Libertarian Free Will and Compatibilism alow degrees of determinism. As stated before I am basically a compatablist, but look more toward science to answer these questions our objective knowledge increases concerning our will, consciousness, and mind increase. Religious presuppositions concerning the nature of our will have little or no meaning to me.

[Littlejoe]

I don't know, I think Molinism, which is my position, comes pretty close to reconciling this.

I looked at Molinism pretty hard before ultimately rejecting it for OVT. IMHO, (which I freely admit may be incorrect) Molinism (to me and many others) ultimately becomes determinism...the Actual world created ends up as what you WILL do. I don't want to derail your thread as we have veered from Philosophy into Theology

[seer]

I looked at Molinism pretty hard before ultimately rejecting it for OVT. IMHO, (which I freely admit may be incorrect) Molinism (to me and many others) ultimately becomes determinism...the Actual world created ends up as what you WILL do. I don't want to derail your thread as we have veered from Philosophy into Theology

Yes, I understand the objection, but our acts would still be free. And God created and rules the world so that the greatest number of free willed can be saved.

[Jude]

I consider it a given that determinism dominates human behavior and choices but the problem becomes which choices and to what degree do we freely make choices. Both Libertarian Free Will and Compatibilism alow degrees of determinism. As stated before I am basically a compatablist, but look more toward science to answer these questions our objective knowledge increases concerning our will, consciousness, and mind increase. Religious presuppositions concerning the nature of our will have little or no meaning to me.

The environment in which a child is raised affects behavior and decisions. Genetics can predispose some from conception to certain behaviors like alcoholism. Even so , many through Christ are able to begin to make different choices and turn their lives around. To effectively change their outcome. What would have been a determined outcome based on one set of behaviors is altered and another path is determined. A person determined to drink becomes determined to abstain. The Bible is consistent in laying out this reality. What we believe, our faith, will determine how we act and the choices we make. Change the belief system and you change the determined trajectory. If your faith rests in science to eventually fill in all the blanks, so be it. That's your free willed choice. I will trust in Christ of my own free will. For me there are two directions that any choice I make can take me: Toward Christ or away from Christ. It is simple. I like simple. I know that the discussion around free will/determinism issues run much deeper than my surface scratching but I have seen and heard enough to put my faith in Him. Peace!

[Tassman]

It is interesting, even if determinism is true I think we only have two possible sources for that effect. The cold, uncaring, non rational forces of nature or a rational, loving and just Mind.

[seer]

Given your musings Tass, I'm beginning to believe that the source of your reasoning is in fact non-rational.

[Tassman]

Given your musings Tass, I'm beginning to believe that the source of your reasoning is in fact non-rational.

[seer]

Yes and you are stuck with being a sock puppet of non-rational forces.

[shunyadragon]

The environment in which a child is raised affects behavior and decisions. Genetics can predispose some from conception to certain behaviors like alcoholism. Even so , many through Christ are able to begin to make different choices and turn their lives around. To effectively change their outcome. What would have been a determined outcome based on one set of behaviors is altered and another path is determined. A person determined to drink becomes determined to abstain. The Bible is consistent in laying out this reality. What we believe, our faith, will determine how we act and the choices we make. Change the belief system and you change the determined trajectory. If your faith rests in science to eventually fill in all the blanks, so be it. That's your free willed choice. I will trust in Christ of my own free will. For me there are two directions that any choice I make can take me: Toward Christ or away from Christ. It is simple. I like simple. I know that the discussion around free will/determinism issues run much deeper than my surface scratching but I have seen and heard enough to put my faith in Him. Peace!

The above bolded is problematic and almost sound robotic as to what is determined and what is not in different circumstances as to what people believe or not believe. This sounds like a religious testimonial more than an objective of what is the nature of Free Will. Yes, free will/determinism problem runs deeper then ones own personal experience, and putting ones faith in one religion or another should noot determine the nature of free/will for all of human nature.

I put my faith in science for understanding the nature of the physical world, including human nature, and not the existence nor the nature of God and the soul.

[hansgeorg]

Well I have studied it and the fact is you can not be both free, in any real sense, and determined.

How about free to do exactly your own choices and then determined by God to exist (or not to exist other than as novel character, dream etc)?

[Jedidiah]

And again I ask what sort of evidence would you expect to find about the God of the Bible? Not some made up strawman, but the real God of the Bible - regardless of whether you believe in Him or not. What evidence could there be of a creator who is not a part of the creation?

[Tassman]

Yes and you are stuck with being a sock puppet of non-rational forces.

This is not determinism as it applies to human choices as you well know, it's been explained often enough. But even if it was, your position is ludicrous, namely X cannot be true because I find it distasteful, whereas Y is much nicer, so I'll believe that instead.

With regard to making choices your position is logically incoherent. It takes no account of the impact subconscious influences have on your decision-making process. E.g. your choice of chocolate cake over a cream cake is based upon a myriad factors related to your history of cake-eating. It is not made in isolation of these life-experiences.