Originally posted by seer
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
The Moral Argument for God's Existence
Collapse
X
-
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI'm not speaking of natural selection, but how or why our moral sense dawned on us. You can have order in the animal world without understanding moral precepts or categorizing ethical principles or rules.I just want to see more people saved and heaven bound, so sue me.
And BTW - you have no problem forcing other people follow your leftist rules by law. Like our Christian bakers...Last edited by Tassman; 12-05-2016, 09:37 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, except that we weren't talking about the moral or immoral nature of homosexuality and witchcraft, we were talking about murder being objectively immoral. So my question to you wasn't about homosexuality or witchcraft, it was about whether or not the murder of homosexuals and or witches, or anyone else for that matter, is objectively immoral. Your claim is that it is, but if that is so, then your god, who you claim to be the objective ground of morality, can't be, because he ordered them to be murdered. Explain.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
But that is exactly what you don't know and must assume. You were not there and there is no way to repeat those conditions or that time.
So only by following your rules will people get to heaven, right? Other Christians disagree with your interpretation of scripture, e.g. re homosexuality...so they're headed for hell, presumably.
Why not, you have no problem impinging on the rights of the Christian baker.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostYou mean like God? The universe? I mean if God's nature is arbitrary then pretty much everything else is too, even more so.
So if it isn't a fault then we are back to square one.
Or square one of the Euthyphro dilemma? That still leaves the moral objectivist with the awkward position of having to accept the objective standard as true, regardless of whether it is in line with his own morality.
Best,
c.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostJim what are you not getting. If God ordered or caused the death of sinners, be it homosexuals or me, then that is not murder. It is a just act. Murder is the unjustified taking of a human life. Not all killing is murder.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostNope. What you are implying is that murder is justified only when god is doing or ordering the murder. If murder is objectively immoral, then why would said murder be a just act for god to commit, but not a just act for you to commit. To argue that in gods case it isn't murder, but that in your case it would be, makes the act of murder itself not objectively immoral. Justification for murder has to do with the nature of the crime committed not with the nature of the executioner.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostJim do you agree that not all killing is murder?
My point is that we are all criminals worthy of death. We are all sinners, and the wages of sin is death.
The fact that as a Christian I am not allowed to unilaterally take another life does not make God's prerogative unjust. Nor could it.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, you can differentiate between murder and killing. Killing could be an act of self defense as opposed to murder which is not.
Then to murder is not objectively immoral, but arbitrary and subjective, and I say murder because for god to take a life, or order it to be taken, for the commiting of a particular sin, is an arbitrary choice and has nothing to do with self defense.
Again, if taking anothers life is objectively immoral, then that would need apply to the ground of morality as well as it would to you or to me who would be subject to it. Murder can't be both objectively immoral and justified at the same time. The reason you would not be allowed to murder would be because murder is objectively immoral, and that would need apply to god as well, the ground of objective morality, otherwise it isn't objectively immoral but an arbitrary choice, subject to the whim of god, and their being subject to the whim of anyone, makes them non-objective.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostBut that is exactly what you don't know and must assume. You were not there and there is no way to repeat those conditions or that time.
Well I'll leave the fate of others in God's hands. We all get things wrong, but God is gracious and forgiving.
Why not, you have no problem impinging on the rights of the Christian baker.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostNo, if we had a law on the books that applied the death penalty to rapists, that would not be murder, nor done in self defense. But still just.
Jim, show me one dictionary definition that says killing has to be in self defense for it not to be murder? You are just making up your own definition.
That makes no sense Jim. Say again that the state applied the penalty to rapists, that would perfectly just, but it wouldn't be just for me to kill the rapist unilaterally of my own accord. I do not have the authority that the state does. My act would not be justified, the state's would.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostBut you're confusing mans law, which is subjective, with gods law which you contend to be objective. The death penalty is only just from mans subjective perspective.
Again, this has nothing to do with authority, if murder is objectively immoral, then its objectively immoral regardless of authority. If there is an authority that can unilaterally decide whether murder is justified on a case by case basis, then murder isn't objectively immoral.
Oxford, Murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
You have to make the case that God judging sinners (law breakers) is unlawful. Good luck.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere is archaeological evidence of group living and the concomitant rules of behavior dating back millions of years to the dawn of man...long before the gods and their rules were invented.
Tell that to the Midianites and the Amalekites et al.
The Christian baker has the right to believe any crap he wants to. He does not have the right to discriminate against others based on that belief.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd now you are trying to lie your way out. I told you how I knew that. Post #16, which you mostly ignored.
Still waiting for the exact logical fallacy that you are speaking of.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostAnother lie. I told you that in post #21, which you also mostly ignored: "So far, shifting the burden of proof, non sequitur and arguing from false premises."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
|
173 responses
649 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by shunyadragon
06-07-2024, 07:30 AM
|
Comment