Hypostatic Quaternity

[Machinist]

I don't know: Existence, Identity, Consciousness...Here are three things, ideas. You can't have one without the others, and they are all irreducible, and each one depends on the others for it's existence...or something like that. I can't do the argument justice, but it made sense. Has no one ever read Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged? I forced myself to read that book. It was a struggle, but there were times I think I came across something that had a....a.....certain Glow to points that she was making.

That's where these 3 axioms come from. Now don't dismiss it quickly because the author was an atheist, because there is a certain resonance here with these 3 things. And if God is indeed a trinity, then there will be a fundamental 3-ness here in this continuum as well.

[Machinist]

Oh. Anyway, there you go, proof that God exists.

[Machinist]

I don't have time this evening to focus my attention on this, but I want to throw out a trinity of sorts and see what everyone thinks:

I remember forcing myself a long time ago to read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, 2 books I thoroughly did not enjoy. There was this curious part in the appendix of one on Objectivism, and the author identifies a trinity of irreducible axioms. They are:

1.) Existence
2.)Identity
3.)Consciousness

Is it possible that this is true? Could you add a 4th? Or is this really it?

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I would appreciate it. Otherwise it may be tomorrow sometime before I can get back here to go more into it. I'm just thinking that if there is something here, then maybe this is the missing fractal that I am looking for, an objective imprint of 3ness here in our world.

[Machinist]

I don't think we can ever fully understand God or his nature. Just what he has revealed to our teeny little minds.

It seems that many here have fully comprehended at least the Moral Nature of God.

[Cow Poke]

Because Jesus hadn't been born yet?

He's just being Sparko. Jesus always was - there was never a time when Jesus wasn't, though His time on this planet "in the flesh" was short.

[Machinist]

Well if you want to get really technical, "Jesus" didn't create the universe, the Son did.

Because Jesus hadn't been born yet?

[rogue06]

Well if you want to get really technical, "Jesus" didn't create the universe, the Son did.

Roy? Is that you?

[Cow Poke]

Well if you want to get really technical, "Jesus" didn't create the universe, the Son did.

[Sparko]

Right. The trinity is a beautifully intricate concept unique to Christianity.

I was just thinking that perhaps there was some fractal of it observable through Logic or Reason here in our domain, independent of the Bible.

It is what it is.

I don't think we can ever fully understand God or his nature. Just what he has revealed to our teeny little minds.

[Sparko]

Even in that part, God created the Heavens and the Earth (Gen 1:1) but Jesus was God's agent of creation, because HE (Jesus) created all that is. So, God through Jesus created the world, or Jesus, as God's agent of creation....

At least we see that all three get along marvelously well!

Well if you want to get really technical, "Jesus" didn't create the universe, the Son did.

[Machinist]

There is nothing stopping God from being a Quarternity, or a Quintity, etc, but the Bible only alludes to a Trinity. It in various places mentions that there is only ONE God YHWH. But then it mentions three distinct persons as being God, The son, the Holy Spirit and the Father. Each is said to have various characteristics that only God has, such as Creator of the Universe, being omniscient, etc. But they are also shown to be distinct persons. The Son talks to the Father, the Father speaks of his Son, and the Son speaks of the Holy Spirit as "another counselor" so we have three persons, yet only one God. Not three Gods. That is the Trinity.

Right. The trinity is a beautifully intricate concept unique to Christianity.

I was just thinking that perhaps there was some fractal of it observable through Logic or Reason here in our domain, independent of the Bible.

It is what it is.

[Cow Poke]

...Each is said to have various characteristics that only God has, such as Creator of the Universe...

Even in that part, God created the Heavens and the Earth (Gen 1:1) but Jesus was God's agent of creation, because HE (Jesus) created all that is. So, God through Jesus created the world, or Jesus, as God's agent of creation....

At least we see that all three get along marvelously well!

[Sparko]

There is nothing stopping God from being a Quarternity, or a Quintity, etc, but the Bible only alludes to a Trinity. It in various places mentions that there is only ONE God YHWH. But then it mentions three distinct persons as being God, The son, the Holy Spirit and the Father. Each is said to have various characteristics that only God has, such as Creator of the Universe, being omniscient, etc. But they are also shown to be distinct persons. The Son talks to the Father, the Father speaks of his Son, and the Son speaks of the Holy Spirit as "another counselor" so we have three persons, yet only one God. Not three Gods. That is the Trinity.

[Machinist]

If it is an argument for it rather than just analogy you are after, then what I call the "Relational argument" comes in. God is supposed to be love, and a unitarian entity could not embody love. Nor could such an attribute of love be inherent to such a being.

I'm not sure if I am clearly conveying what I am thinking of here. Thank you though for this information. It is definitely a stab in the right direction.

I am groping in the dark here, but I think there is something there, something in the room.

Let me brainstorm here a minute and stream some consciousness:

Morality is one of God's properties
God is the only source of Morality
God is unchanging therefore Morality is unchanging
This can be argued in a debate
Atheism is completely irrational
because it is evident, plain to see
that Morality is objective
And the atheist in his rebellion
refuses to see this truth
The Argument from Morality
is so old that a lot of people are
tired of hearing it, because it always ends
in stalemate, while both parties
believe they have they have the correct
perspective.
It's One of God's properties, His Qualities,
It is objective and it can be argued.
3-ness is also a Property or Quality of God
Just like Morality is
But 3-ness can't be deduced from simple examinations
of Logic and Reason like objective Morality can,
the Morality that obviously can't be inherent to humans,
and must come from an outside source.
I see 3-ness, Trinality, as a property of God
Just like I see Morality as a property of God.
These are different categories, different names,
but they are still a property.
Why can one property be argued effectively
while the other property only comes from a creative synthesis
of translations of ancient documents?
Can it be argued for instance, that man is a a trinality himself?
The Body, Soul and Spirit perhaps?
Or is this merely another cleaving of the air in the upper regions
of space beyond the clouds?
Can an Ontology be synthesized like Art,
Just on the fly?
Just how malleable is Reason exactly?
Or if it's objective and can be argued to be so,
why can't the trinity be argued by emphasizing
a 3-ness that is right before our eyes, and is the bedrock
that all reason and Logic is built upon?
Perhaps, there is a 3-ness that we just haven't discovered yet.
The science of Artificial Intelligence has reached
a point where they are borrowing terms from philosophy
to describe their domain.
We are placing the cupola on the tower of Babyl.
Surely a 3-ness will confront the scientist soon
And it will be not only a technological advent
but will re-write the code of our Ontological Matrix.
In his attempts to be God, man will discover God
and it will bear an unmistakable 3-ness.
And at that point, Trinitarianisn will have an argument
that they can bring to the world
as effective and solid as the argument from Morality.
It will be a New dispensational era, so to speak.
It will be a New Ontological Dispensation,
an Epistimological Dispensation,
a logical one, a moral one,
when man discovers God.
And we're on the cusp, and if they keep pushing the envelope
they will find a fundamental trinity of things.
There has to be something there, more than just
ancient scrolls that we're extracting this enigmatic and incomprehensible
concept of the trinity from.

Clear as mud?

[Cerebrum123]

It does not have to be an analogy .An argument would work just fine. It just seems that it would be a standard argument.

Properties and Characteristics of God, such as Morality, Reason, etc have begat arguments among Apologists of the Faith. Why not the property of Trinality? Why doesn't it have it's argument? Is it only a concept synthesized from Scripture alone?

If it is an argument for it rather than just analogy you are after, then what I call the "Relational argument" comes in. God is supposed to be love, and a unitarian entity could not embody love. Nor could such an attribute of love be inherent to such a being.