Originally posted by Jesse
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On atheists who attend church
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostNonetheless, I can see why people would want to stay within the structure of a church; it's something they're used to, and people enjoy the social benefits of belonging to organizations, and generally like to fit in somewhere. However, why wouldn't people want to do this within the context of fraternal organizations, or other groups that don't require somebody to basically play pretend?
In the case of pastors and clergy, there's also the fiduciary concern. If you've been a pastor for 20 years, you might have some legitimate concerns about how you could care for yourself and your family without the income from that occupation. It might be quite difficult to simply leave a decently-paying position in order to find other work, and a seminary education is not generally the most eclectic, for helping a person to find general work.
I have also seen the argument that some like the values that Christianity teaches, especially Jesus's ethical teachings. I guess I don't understand why somebody who likes these would require the context of a church to practice/promote them."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIn the case of pastors and clergy, there's also the fiduciary concern.
If you've been a pastor for 20 years, you might have some legitimate concerns about how you could care for yourself and your family without the income from that occupation.
It might be quite difficult to simply leave a decently-paying position
in order to find other work, and a seminary education is not generally the most eclectic, for helping a person to find general work.
Generally, I think the social aspect is what keeps people in church. Even amongst those atheists that say they still value Jesus' ethical teachings, most do not remain with their churches. While identifying with Christian ethics may be a factor in some atheists remaining in church, I would think that it is secondary to the social factors.
I DO agree that the social factor is probably the main reason why those atheists who stay do so - including the social aspect of remaining married.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI find that a bit offensive. I know PLENTY of Pastors, mostly of smaller churches, who serve because it's a calling in SPITE of the money.
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Um... define "decently-paying" - MANY pastors are bi-vocational, working a secular job in addition to whatever they are paid by a Church, if anything.
Somebody who has been a pastor for 20 years probably understands that God provides, and trusts Him accordingly.
Yeah, a degree in poly-sci is MUCH better at getting somebody a job selling cars or managing a burger joint.
You seem to be quite liberal with the assumptions and generalizations.
I DO agree that the social factor is probably the main reason why those atheists who stay do so - including the social aspect of remaining married."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostI've known many pastors like this, as well. I wasn't saying that pastoring is a high-paying job, sought after because of the big bucks it can net someone. I'm not one of those people who pretends that every pastor is a televangelist or a Mega-Church leader. However, the fact that there are some pastors who serve despite being able to make more money elsewhere does not change the fact that there are other pastors who could not make as much in other jobs.
We were discussing pastors who have lost their faith and become atheists. Such people would not "understand that God provides, and trust Him accordingly."
And these jobs would come with a significant fiduciary downgrade, for many pastors. The concern regarding how one might make up the income shed by such a pay cut could very easily be a reason that an atheist puts on a Christian guise and continues pastoring, despite his own lack of faith.
They are admittedly anecdotal. I'm not arguing a logical syllogism by their usage, and I'd gladly abandon such views if data showed them to be in error. I mention them simply to give my opinion on factors which might keep an atheist attending church.
I can tell you, from experience, that coming out to my wife as an atheist led to one of the biggest arguments we've ever had, followed by a few years of avoiding religious talk, altogether. It can certainly be a scary thing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post...
Yeah, a degree in poly-sci is MUCH better at getting somebody a job selling cars or managing a burger joint."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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I think a legitimate point has been raised. If somebody is supporting a family on a steady salary - not a high paying one, but a reliable one nonetheless, and their entire educational training has been placed in the pastoral basket... I could see that the person would not want to suddenly leave their family without support."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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And to be clear, I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do at all, just that I see why somebody would."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostAnd these jobs would come with a significant fiduciary downgrade, for many pastors.
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