Originally posted by KingsGambit
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Militant Atheism
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThey all share two things in common. Everyone of them is atheistic and they're all left wing. But I'm sure that's merely a coincidence."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThey all share two things in common. Everyone of them is atheistic and they're all left wing. But I'm sure that's merely a coincidence.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostCommunism in particular. The specific government structure responsible for these atrocities would have to be the more immediate culprit than an underlying ideology that may or may not be directly relevant. I suspect authoritarianism more broadly is at issue, thus Pinochet, who seems to be disturbingly popular among some conservatives today.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOBP - you (and others) seem to take comments like "land-owners" and translate it into "every white person everywhere." Of COURSE abolitionists resisted, and there were abolitionists both north and south. Some spoke publicly, some acted "underground" (so to speak), and some did both. That the privileged were white, wealthy, connected land owners does not mean every white person was "pro-slavery." And "whites accustom to their privilege" does not mean "all whites were privileged." While it is true that white people in that era were generally more privileged than black people in that era, there are always white people who have less privilege and black people who have more.
The knee-jerk reaction from the right to the idea that systemic racism existed, and continues to exist, is somewhat amazing to me. It's discouraging that we can be in 2018 and in such denial of the long term impacts of our country's history. Racism is so insidious. Right now I am traveling through the south on business. I have stopped at two hotels, a Costco, a Target, and two grocery stores. So far - 100% of the time, the people doing the front-line jobs were mostly being done by black people, with the next largest population being Latino and a smattering of white people: cashiers, stock people, housekeepers, front desk clerks. But the managers and owners? So far every one I have met or have seen has been white. That aligns with my experience when I lived here (New Orleans) from late 1977 to mid 1979. Managers and owners tend to be overwhelmingly white, and line workers are heavily black and Latino. I will be interested to see if it remains the pattern as I travel (drive) through Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Virginia over the next 17 days.
The institution of slavery ended as a legally sanctioned reality in 1860s with the Emancipation Proclamation and the conclusion of the Civil War. Legally sanctioned racism continued on through the 1960s and into the 1970s at several levels of government. Even in 2018, the Alabama constitution still calls for the segregation of black and white students, and every attempt to amend the constitution to eliminate this component has failed. The results of so may centuries of slavery followed by so many decades of institutional racism cannot be erased in a couple of decades. We still have institutionalized, systemic racism in this country. Turning a blind eye to it is not productive.
To be fair, it is also not productive to point to every little thing said or done and label it "racism" if it disproportionately impacts one race more than another. All THAT does is sensitize everyone to the term "racism" and rob it of its true meaning.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSeems to be some conflation here of "slavery" and "racism." For the most part, slave owners didn't care about the race of their slaves - they were as happy to have white slaves as black (except that white slaves tended to be more expensive and in shorter supply.) Nor was it whites alone who owned slaves, there were also black slave-owners. And just as an aside - women were more aggressively opposed to manumission of slaves than were men (on average).
For me - the issue is not "I am guilty and need to do something about it." It is "there is an ongoing injustice at play, and I would like to contribute to ending it." Racism and its legacy are only one such injustice. Gender discrimination, age discrimination, and all of the other ways we systemically undermine others should all be given their due attention.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostTab, with all due respect, that there were a few black slaveholders (and there have been black slaveholders in history) and that there were a few white slaves as well does not alter the place slavery played in American history and the history of racism. IMO, it's a sidetrack. Slavery was not a "one issue" thing across the board. It had racist roots in the belief many slaveholders had that black people were simply inferior. It had broad economic roots in that it represented a massive pool of inexpensive labor. It was justified economically, religiously, and by pretty much any other means the people who engaged in it could rationalize their choices. And it has had lingering effects that have rippled down into the modern day, effects that many, today, deny even exist. Most of these issues have, IMO, been very poorly addressed, or not addressed at all.
For me - the issue is not "I am guilty and need to do something about it." It is "there is an ongoing injustice at play, and I would like to contribute to ending it." Racism and its legacy are only one such injustice. Gender discrimination, age discrimination, and all of the other ways we systemically undermine others should all be given their due attention.
As I have commented before - The slavers (for the most part) bought slaves from traders and resold them. The people the slavers bought them from were of the same race (for the most part) as the slaves ... that is, they were selling their own people into slavery. Their trade had roots in history extending to well before white slavers started buying from them. While white societies have banned slavery, the descendants of the black slavers continue the trade, primarily with certain countries in the Middle East. So - due attention has its appropriate territory.
that there were a few black slaveholders (and there have been black slaveholders in history) and it continues through the present ... American society's slave holdings have been relegated to history - few black slave-holders on American territory, but elsewhere in the world?
and that there were a few white slaves as well ... There were significantly more than a few; they were mostly called indentured labourers.
does not alter the place slavery played in American history ... past history
and the history of racism ... there are as many black racists as there are white (and other colours to boot).1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostFor me - the issue is not "I am guilty and need to do something about it." It is "there is an ongoing injustice at play, and I would like to contribute to ending it." Racism and its legacy are only one such injustice. Gender discrimination, age discrimination, and all of the other ways we systemically undermine others should all be given their due attention.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAs I have commented before - The slavers (for the most part) bought slaves from traders and resold them. The people the slavers bought them from were of the same race (for the most part) as the slaves ... that is, they were selling their own people into slavery. Their trade had roots in history extending to well before white slavers started buying from them. While white societies have banned slavery, the descendants of the black slavers continue the trade, primarily with certain countries in the Middle East. So - due attention has its appropriate territory.
Originally posted by tabibito View Postthat there were a few black slaveholders (and there have been black slaveholders in history) and it continues through the present ... American society's slave holdings have been relegated to history - few black slave-holders on American territory, but elsewhere in the world?
Originally posted by tabibito View Postand that there were a few white slaves as well ... There were significantly more than a few; they were mostly called indentured labourers.
And how much difference is there, I wonder, between abusive indentured servitude, and the bank that knowingly grants a mortgage to someone who cannot afford it, then waits for them to fail and repossesses their home, leaving them bankrupt and (potentially) homeless?
Originally posted by tabibito View Postdoes not alter the place slavery played in American history ... past history
Second, I'm not sure what your point is.
Originally posted by tabibito View Postand the history of racism ... there are as many black racists as there are white (and other colours to boot).The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI cannot begin to tell you how refreshing it is to hear that from someone on this site and (generally) from the right. Too often what I hear is denial the situations exist (e.g., white privilege, male privilege, youth privilege, etc.) and insistence that those of us sensitive to these issues are just trying to make everyone feel guilty.
This I cannot comment on at present, other than to note it at least partially does not align with what I think I know. But I will dig around and see what I can find. While I know some of this (traders being of the same race as the traded) existed in the 1400s-1800s, my understanding was that the vast majority of slaving came from white raids on black villages throughout Africa (and other places). But I have to admit that I learned much of that in school, which gave us Columbus as a hero, and a great deal of other "cleaned" history. So...I'll put any further response on hold until I have a chance to look into it. That it is happening today I absolutely agree.
So this may be out disconnect. My comments were about American slavery and the impact on racism and racial differences through to the present. I was not making global statements.
This is another distinction. Indentured laborers fall along a spectrum. At one end are those who were fairly treated and it provided a mechanism by which they could achieve a goal (i.e., come to America, secure land, etc.). At the other are those who were unscrupulously locked in indefinite servitude by the terms of the indenture - making them no better than slaves. Between those two extremes lay a lot of variation. So I don't simply equate indentured servitude with slavery.And how much difference is there, I wonder, between abusive indentured servitude, and the bank that knowingly grants a mortgage to someone who cannot afford it, then waits for them to fail and repossesses their home, leaving them bankrupt and (potentially) homeless?
First - "past history" is redundant.
Second, I'm not sure what your point is.
Racism is not limited to any one race. But, in my experience, most "black racism" (again, speaking about America) is not "blacks are superior to whites" so much as it is an angry response to the lot the black person in America has had to face for so many centuries.
While it has become significantly better in the modern day, the damages resulting from all those decades of broad-based racism and the ongoing reality of systemic racism still results in (on average) a significant gap between the white experience and the black experience. That doesn't make black racism right, but I don't see it as the same as white racism.
However, I also see no problem with people who act to improve things for their own identity group, provided that there is no attempt to tear others down in the process.Last edited by tabibito; 05-06-2019, 05:15 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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