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Opinions on Billy Graham
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.
About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.
(I do agree with your observation about disconnects, however. I had not considered this issue from the perspective of "everyone's a sinner." When someone has that dismal a view of human nature, things like the Graham Rule would obviously make perfect sense. They don't when your view of human nature is less dark. Until you brought that up, I had not even considered it).The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostFor as irritating as he could be, I found robrecht far more...I don't know...rational? And maybe emotionless? I hate to say it, but carpe is not the person I remember him being 10 years ago. At all. But I'm certain the same could be said of me.
(though I have to admit to being a bit perplexed about the "emotion" part. I think I have felt frustrated a couple times, irritated once, laughed my butt off with CP more than few times, but mostly this is an exercise in discussion and debate. I don't typically feel all that emotional about it. If you were reading "emotion" into the posts I made here...then it didn't come from me.)The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
(though I have to admit to being a bit perplexed about the "emotion" part. I think I have felt frustrated a couple times, irritated once, laughed my butt off with CP more than few times, but mostly this is an exercise in discussion and debate. I don't typically feel all that emotional about it. If you were reading "emotion" into the posts I made here...then it didn't come from me.)
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI'm to the point where, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably be a straight-up nihilist and a misanthrope. (I might be those things anyway)
People suck. The varieties of our screwed-up-ness are never-ending.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI don't believe you.
(actually - I did feel concern at one point - when it seemed to me that CP thought I was disparaging his marriage or his wife.)Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-21-2018, 05:28 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is a huge difference between a person that conveys a message, by book and word, that people want to hear and want to pay for, and a man who tells people that they have to donate because god wants them to have a jet or is threatening to "take them to heaven."
If I reject B.G. for being successful preaching a message I don't happen to agree with, then I have to reject every self-help expert, every motivational speaker, and every post-career politician that ever existed. When someone sets out to dube the gullible, they deserve our disdain. When they are just preaching something they believe in that you do not happen to agree with, IMO, they do not.
I have to admit I am MORE impressed by men who preach this message and maintain a humble lifestyle (e.g., Ghandi, M.L.K., Mandela, etc.). But I do not begrudge someone their success.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, I can read. He say's I think it can be phrased respectfully. I think it can be phrased respectively as well, but that's not a request that we necessarily do so. And since when is not following such a request against the rules?
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Originally posted by RumTumTugger View PostI will not post what I was going to you said what I was trying to with more grace then I was going to. thank you.
ETA: Fourth time through, it finally parsed.
I will not post what I was going to.
You said what I was trying to say with more grace than I was going to.
Thank you.
The original was far more amusing.Last edited by Juvenal; 02-21-2018, 06:24 PM.
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I liked BG. I don't know anything about what he said on the Nixon tapes, and I'm not going to rake up that muck, either. Out of respect for BG, I'll withhold my less laudatory opinions of his offspring. The crusades were weird, and they attracted even weirder camp followers, but all in all, I'd say his legacy includes more good than harm, by my measure of whether he inspired courtesy and kindness.
As to the Graham rule, sounds good to me for anyone who speaks to that many people at once. Large audiences attract groupies, and there's a need for active defenses when they show up.
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As a woman, if a man who is not my husband suggested that he and I spend time together alone, I would vehemently oppose the suggestion out of suspicion.
If I knew a man who was known to have spent time alone with women other than his wife, I would suspect him of having an affair. Even if I personally saw him interacting respectfully with others, that would not, in itself, be enough to dispel the suspicion. "If men speak ill of you, live so that no one will believe them". - PlatoCuriosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.
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Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostAs a woman, if a man who is not my husband suggested that he and I spend time together alone, I would vehemently oppose the suggestion out of suspicion.
If I knew a man who was known to have spent time alone with women other than his wife, I would suspect him of having an affair. Even if I personally saw him interacting respectfully with others, that would not, in itself, be enough to dispel the suspicion. "If men speak ill of you, live so that no one will believe them". - Plato
Your second is troubling. It is, IMO, far too broad. Again, if we were talking about a priest hearing confessions, I wouldn't think twice about it. If we were talking about a counselor or psychiatrist seeing a woman patient, I wouldn't think twice about it. If it was a minister who counseled anyone who wanted it, I wouldn't think twice about it. If it was a male or female doctor seeing a patient of the opposite sex, I wouldn't think twice about it. I am a man, I have spent time alone with women who were not my wife. Sometimes it was in the school kitchen preparing a meal for the scout troop that was to arrive later in the evening. Sometimes it was at work, going over courses and plans for projects. Sometimes it was simply getting together with an old friend. I would never think to demean any of these people by insisting we have a chaperone so no one would think I was "having an affair," or so I wouldn't be "tempted and lose control."
I think it comes down to fear. Long ago, I decided I would not live my life in fear of what MIGHT happen. I live my life according to my conscience, and the rest can take care of themselves. But it also comes down to trust. The message "I cannot be alone with a woman/man" communicates "I don't trust myself to be moral" and "I don't trust the rest of you to trust me!" It sows the seeds for a suspicious community. It is not something I would ever do, without just cause - and "because you're a woman" is not "just cause."
But I DO understand (though I disagree with) the perspective brought up earlier - that human nature is "implicitly sinful" - and the impact that has on trust and the need to protect oneself. After all, if everyone is debased, then this rule makes perfect sense - and there is no one being disrespected because no one really deserves respect. This point of view is one of the many, many, reasons I am no longer Christian.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostI liked BG. I don't know anything about what he said on the Nixon tapes, and I'm not going to rake up that muck, either. Out of respect for BG, I'll withhold my less laudatory opinions of his offspring. The crusades were weird, and they attracted even weirder camp followers, but all in all, I'd say his legacy includes more good than harm, by my measure of whether he inspired courtesy and kindness.
As to the Graham rule, sounds good to me for anyone who speaks to that many people at once. Large audiences attract groupies, and there's a need for active defenses when they show up.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostSays here that leads to dancing.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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