The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

[robrecht]

Probably both the Koran, and the Baha'i writings in many forms.

That is possibly the case, but I reserve judgment, and leave that to a higher power. I know that in the Baha'i writings it refers to the knowledge and sincerity of the individual that determines the nature of the spiritual journey through many worlds, which of course I could not possibly answer.

I do not consider 'God inflicting punishment' is an accurate understanding. I believe the consequences of punishment is self-inflicted.

You appear o be hammering on a few individual citations without the broad understanding and comprehension of the writings of Baha'u'llah. Translation form Persian is not as literal and accurate as some may wish or believe.

And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine MessiahIsrael, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus 21 and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming!

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

[shunyadragon]

And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine MessiahIsrael, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus 21 and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming!

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

This only confirms my view the actions of people rejecting the Revelation from God that determine the consequences of their spiritual journey. This is basically the belief of your own faith, Judaism and Islam just worded differently. You keep mindlessly hammering on semantics of your citations, which is senseless as 10,000 monkeys on typewriters.

[robrecht]

This only confirms my view the actions of people rejecting the Revelation from God that determine the consequences of their spiritual journey. This is basically the belief of your own faith, Judaism and Islam just worded differently. You keep mindlessly hammering on semantics of your citations, which is senseless as 10,000 monkeys on typewriters.

Well that did not provide any help with the original Persian text. Personally, I certainly do not believe that Jews are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy nor that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, or extinguished in them the spirit of faith, or tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.

[shunyadragon]

Well that did not provide any help with the original Persian text. Personally, I certainly do not believe that Jews are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy nor that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, or extinguished in them the spirit of faith, or tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.

Your personal beliefs are not at issue here, nor is your 'personal reading of the meaning of things.'

[robrecht]

Your personal beliefs are not at issue here, nor is your 'personal reading of the meaning of things.'

Sure it is. You made a false claim about "your own faith." So the fact that my own faith is not at all as you describe is obviously relevant.

[shunyadragon]

Sure it is. You made a false claim about "your own faith." So the fact that my own faith is not at all as you describe is obviously relevant.

Again . . . Your 'personal beliefs' are not at issue here, nor is your 'personal reading of the meaning of things.'

You are taking what appears as a secular humanist approach to other religions than your own, and your view is to selectively attack others, and not understand a the belief as a whole. You maintain a foggy nebulous view of your own religious beliefs.

[robrecht]

Again . . . Your 'personal beliefs' are not at issue here, nor is your 'personal reading of the meaning of things.'

You are taking what appears as a secular humanist approach to other religions than your own, and your view is to selectively attack others, and not understand a the belief as a whole. You maintain a foggy nebulous view of your own religious beliefs.

At the end of your first article, you also ask me what to say to our Jewish brothers about the promise God made to them: Has this been forgotten? And this - believe me - is a question that radically involves us as Christians because, with the help of God, starting from the Second Vatican Council, we have discovered that the Jewish people are still, for us, the holy root from which Jesus originated. I too, in the friendship I have cultivated in all of these long years with our Jewish brothers, in Argentina, many times while praying have asked God, especially when I remember the terrible experience of the Shoah. What I can say, with the Apostle Paul, is that God has never stopped believing in the alliance made with Israel and that, through the terrible trials of these past centuries, the Jews have kept their faith in God. And for this, we will never be grateful enough to them, as the Church, but also as humanity at large. Persevering in their faith in God and in the alliance, they remind everyone, even us as Christians that we are always awaiting, the return of the Lord and that therefore we must remain open to Him and never take refuge in what we have already achieved.

See also the encyclical originally drafted under Pope Benedict XVI but ultimately released by Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, also in 2013:

http://www.vatican.va/evangelii-gaudium/en/

Do you see how this is different from believing that Jews are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, or extinguished in them the spirit of faith, or tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire?

[shunyadragon]

Do you see how this is different from believing that Jews are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, or extinguished in them the spirit of faith, or tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire?

Polite modern euphemisms do not reflect the reality of Christian scripture and history concerning the relationship between Jews and Christians, as well as relationships with other religions, nor even the recent controversial statements by modern popes concerning the relationship with other religions.

Again the quote clearly reflects the willful rejection of the Revelations of God, and that they 'have wronged themselves.'

[shunyadragon]

I do use secular historico-critical methods when discussing historical or exegetical issues. I have attacked anyone. With respect to theological expression of my religious faith, I do have a great appreciation for apophatic theology in various traditions. I apologize if that appears too nebulous for you, but that is simply the nature of all human attempts to discuss the mystery of God.

I made clear and specific questions concerning 'What you believe?', and you responded with long nebulous paragraphs with nothing conclusive.

It remains a fact that Traditional Christianity defines the 'mystery of God' in inflexible Doctrine and Dogma the will not changes. and than side steps the issues by calling it a mystery.

[robrecht]

Polite modern euphemisms do not reflect the reality of Christian history concerning the relationship between Jews and Christians, as well as relationships with other religions, nor even the recent controversial statements by modern popes concerning the relationship with other religions.

Again the quote clearly reflects the willful rejection of the Revelations of God, and that they 'have wronged themselves.'

[robrecht]

I made clear and specific questions concerning 'What you believe?', and you responded with long nebulous paragraphs with nothing conclusive.

It remains a fact that Traditional Christianity defines the 'mystery of God' in inflexible Doctrine and Dogma the will not changes. and than side steps the issues by calling it a mystery.

You don't believe that God is a mystery?

[shunyadragon]

Simply condemning the violence against the Jews in Christian history, does not address the elephant in the room that is based on Christian scripture, and writings over the millennia by Christian popes and theologians like Martin Luther.

It remains an issue that you tend to view your own religion from out of focus rose colored glasses, and save your vindictive selective sting for others who believe differently. Baha'u'llah did not appropriate Christian anti-Semitism, because Christian violent anti-Semitism is clearly grounded in worldly aggressive condemnation of Jews in the writings of Paul, Martin Luther and others, where the Baha'i references are clearly only concern, 'self wronged' rejection of God's Revelation in the spiritual sense, which has a common foundation in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Your selective vindictive view of selective Baha'i scripture is offensive, and negates any vague nebulous respect you may have for the Baha'i Faith.

You are failing to acknowledge that the whole of the Baha'i spiritual Laws absolutely prohibit Holy War, and any attack on other religions, and that the final judgment is God's concerning the sincerity and knowledge of individual humans concerning salvation, and the journey through other worlds beyond this world.

[shunyadragon]

You don't believe that God is a mystery?

Yes, of course, that is why I believe that God cannot be defined by manmade Doctrines and Dogma like the Trinity. This response does not address the issues of my post.

Again . . .

I made clear and specific questions concerning 'What you believe?', and you responded with long nebulous paragraphs with nothing conclusive.

It remains a fact that Traditional Christianity defines the 'mystery of God' in inflexible Doctrine and Dogma the will not change, and than side steps the issues by calling it a mystery.

[robrecht]

Simply condemning the violence against the Jews in Christian history, does not address the elephant in the room that is based on Christian scripture, and writings over the millennia by Christian popes and theologians like Martin Luther.

It remains an issue that you tend to view your own religion from out of focus rose colored glasses, and save your vindictive selective sting for others who believe differently. Baha'u'llah did not appropriate Christian anti-Semitism, because Christian violent anti-Semitism is clearly grounded in worldly aggressive condemnation of Jews in the writings of Paul, Martin Luther and others, where the Baha'i references are clearly only concern, 'self wronged' rejection of God's Revelation in the spiritual sense, which has a common foundation in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Your selective vindictive view of selective Baha'i scripture is offensive, and negates any vague nebulous respect you may have for the Baha'i Faith.

You are failing to acknowledge that the whole of the Baha'i spiritual Laws absolutely prohibit Holy War, and any attack on other religions, and that the final judgment is God's concerning the sincerity and knowledge of individual humans concerning salvation, and the journey through other worlds beyond this world.

[robrecht]

Yes, of course, that is why I believe that God cannot be defined by manmade Doctrines and Dogma like the Trinity. This response does not address the issues of my post.

Again . . .

I made clear and specific questions concerning 'What you believe?', and you responded with long nebulous paragraphs with nothing conclusive.

It remains a fact that Traditional Christianity defines the 'mystery of God' in inflexible Doctrine and Dogma the will not change, and than side steps the issues by calling it a mystery.

That is your view of the Trinity. I agree with those Christian theologians, eg, Thomas Aquinas, who say that God cannot be defined. What specific beliefs of mine have I failed to discuss with you simply enough.