The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

[shunyadragon]

A brief outline of the Baha'i involvement in the League of Nations and the United Nations.

[shunyadragon]

I do not deny that there are remnants of pagan or classical spirituality within Roman Catholicism, indeed this is sometimes seen as a syncretistic or incarnational value of catholic culture whereby human cultures are accepted and baptized into a more human expression of inculturated communal belief as opposed to more world-denying expressions of sola scriptura Christian belief. But it is not henotheism. It is not the choice of one God over against other gods. Catholics do not choose Jesus over against Mary. Jesus is not seen as a god who must vanquish his mother. Mary, angels, and demons are only seen as creatures, not as rival gods. Mary and all the saints are not only seen as creatures but as human and not some sort of semi-divine human. Mary and the saints are seen as a model of the church and models of human perfection, whereby all believers are able to attain this status.

The highlighted above does not remotely reflect what I said, nor does it reflect the beliefs of the Roman Church concerning the station of Mary. Mary in the Roman Church is considered 'not just another human,' but conceived without sin, and an intermediary between God and humanity. This is clearly an example of polytheism of the existence of a lesser Goddess. I did not say it was a form of henotheism. The belief in the existence of the lesser God Satan can indeed be viewed as form of henotheism

[robrecht]

The highlighted above does not remotely reflect what I said, nor does it reflect the beliefs of the Roman Church concerning the station of Mary. Mary in the Roman Church is considered 'not just another human,' but conceived without sin, and an intermediary between God and humanity. This is clearly an example of polytheism of the existence of a lesser Goddess. I did not say it was a form of henotheism. The belief in the existence of the lesser God Satan can indeed be viewed as form of henotheism

I did not present it as a summary of what you said. Nor did I say Mary's role was that of 'just another human'. I did say that all that Mary is a model of the church for all believers and that all humans are called to divinisation. With respect to Satan, he is believed to be an angelic creature and not a god. If you want to consider belief in created angels to be henotheism, then you must also consider Judaism at the time of the emergence of Christianity to also be a form of henotheism, but this is not the commonly accepted use of the term.

I did not refer to a seer or his visions as an authoritative source, but rather the source for the view that Joseph Smith was a seer was some kind of appeal to authority within the Baha'i faith. Nor did I personally make any such appeal to authority within the Baha'i faith in order to characterize this belief as some expression as genuine or pervasive Baha'i belief. I assume it is not. That is my point. Aberrant forms of belief and practice do not necessarily reflect well genuine theology.

[shunyadragon]

I did not present it as a summary of what you said. Nor did I say Mary's role was that of 'just another human'. I did say that all that Mary is a model of the church for all believers and that all humans are called to divinisation. With respect to Satan, he is believed to be an angelic creature and not a god. If you want to consider belief in created angels to be henotheism, then you must also consider Judaism at the time of the emergence of Christianity to also be a form of henotheism, but this is not the commonly accepted use of the term.

I do not agree with the highlighted above. Mary is indeed given special authority as an intermediary between God and humanity, and special station as being born without sin. You did say that 'Mary is some sort of human,' and based on the actual belief of the Roman Church, she is a lesser Goddess 'Mother of God' by definition. She is described as 'being above all angels.' Many Christians share that this belief is a definite problem.

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:


Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

© Copyright Original Source

Yes, I consider and previously acknowledged Judaism as having various forms of henotheism over time, but also believe by the evidence of the history of Judaism as moving toward the belief in pure Monotheism since the time of Christ. If Satan did not have this realm of authority if God did not allow the evil perpetuated by Satan.

Belief in angels per say is not henotheism unless you give them special authority as the angel (Satan) in rebellion a realm of authority as a lesser God.

You did misquote me as Mary being an example of henotheism.

I did not refer to a seer or his visions as an authoritative source, but rather the source for the view that Joseph Smith was a seer was some kind of appeal to authority within the Baha'i faith.

The source was far too anecdotal to be real. If you wish to cite something like this avoid third party, 'someone said,' which is not a reliable reference.

Nor did I personally make any such appeal to authority within the Baha'i faith in order to characterize this belief as some expression as genuine or pervasive Baha'i belief. I assume it is not. That is my point. Aberrant forms of belief and practice do not necessarily reflect well genuine theology.

Good assumption!

[robrecht]

I do not agree with the highlighted above. Mary is indeed given special authority as an intermediary between God and humanity, and special station as being born without sin. You did say that 'Mary is some sort of human,' and based on the actual belief of the Roman Church, she is a lesser Goddess 'Mother of God' by definition. Many Christians share that this belief is a definite problem.

It is unclear what you are disagreeing with with respect to the bolded. The Orthodox and Catholic churches do teach that Mary was and is human. Do you disagree with that?

Yes, I consider and previously acknowledged Judaism as having various forms of henotheism over time, but also believe by the evidence of the history of Judaism as moving toward the belief in pure Monotheism since the time of Christ. If Satan did not have this realm of authority if God did not allow the evil perpetuated by Satan.

Belief in angels per say is not henotheism unless you give them special authority as the angel (Satan) in rebellion a realm of authority as a lesser God.

You did misquote me as Mary being an example of henotheism.

No, I did not. I was merely pointing out for you that belief in Mary as a created human being does not meet the bar as henotheism and thus is certainly not a challenge to orthodox monotheism.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with these two sentence fragments: "If Satan did not have this realm of authority if God did not allow the evil perpetuated by Satan." Can you please complete the thought or express it as a grammatically correct sentence?

The source was far too anecdotal to be real. If you wish to cite something like this avoid third party, 'someone said,' which is not a reliable reference.

Good assumption!

The gentleman involved is a perfectly fine source for stating his own beliefs, which was his own brand of both Mormon and Baha'i beliefs, but not necessarily representative of what other Baha'is would believe or as a source of standard Baha'i belief. Unless you think I am making up this anecdotal account, there is no need for me to provide any other source than my own word. If you do doubt my word, I can probably find it again. As for his own claim to Joseph Smith being regarded as a seer by some Baha'i's, that is not my claim but his.

[shunyadragon]

It is unclear what you are disagreeing with with respect to the bolded. The Orthodox and Catholic churches do teach that Mary was and is human. Do you disagree with that?

Respond to the source I cited. Christians also consider Christ human. Saying Mary is human does not answer the question, as the source I cited Mary is described as a lesser God, even above the station of the angels, and distinctly not just a human.

No, I did not. I was merely pointing out for you that belief in Mary as a created human being does not meet the bar as henotheism and thus is certainly not a challenge to orthodox monotheism.

Merely pointed out what for what reason? I never claimed henotheism in terms of station of Mary.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with these two sentence fragments: "If Satan did not have this realm of authority if God did not allow the evil perpetuated by Satan." Can you please complete the thought or express it as a grammatically correct sentence?

God allows Satan to have is own realm of evil, therefore a lesser God that must not be worshiped.

[One Bad Pig]

Respond to the source I cited. Christians also consider Christ human. Saying Mary is human does not answer the question, as the source I cited Mary is described as a lesser God, even above the station of the angels, and distinctly not just a human.

No, she isn't. That's merely your own tendentious misreading of the source.

God allows Satan to have is own realm of evil, therefore a lesser God that must not be worshiped.

Your opinion is duly noted.

[robrecht]

Respond to the source I cited.

I see you have added to your post after I responded. I will go back and respond to what you added subsequently.

QUOTE=shunyadragon;247218]Christians also consider Christ human. Saying Mary is human does not answer the question, as the source I cited Mary is described as a lesser God, even above the station of the angels, and distinctly not just a human.[/QUOTE] It answers the question for anyone who understands and does not try to misrepresent the Christian view of the Incarnation and Trinity and the Roman Catholic Church's teachings about Mary. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is a lesser God. That is merely your misrepresentation. Anyone can misunderstand or misrepresent the beliefs of others, especially if they have a polemical agenda. If you want to understand and honestly represent the beliefs or teachings of others, you need merely ask them. That is the way to start a dialogue rather than advance a merely polemical agenda.

QUOTE=shunyadragon;247218]Merely pointed out what for what reason? I never claimed henotheism in terms of station of Mary. [/QUOTE] I've already answered this above. If the the belief is not even that of henotheism, it is certainly not that of a more pronounced form of polytheism. I also introduced the concept of henotheism into the debate because your admission of this in Judaism cuts against your contention that Christianity is a devolution of Jewish Monotheism. Judaism was indeed evolving away from henotheism and Christianity did nothing to reverse that trend. Some Medieval Jewish theologians and later Christian theologians evolved further away from belief in demons, but to my knowledge in orthodox Christianity demons were not seen as a rival God or godes, 'though there have been dualistic heresies within Judaism and Christianity.


QUOTE=shunyadragon;247218]God allows Satan to have is own realm of evil, therefore a lesser God that must not be worshiped.[/QUOTE] Satan is not a lesser God in the Christian understanding of God, monotheism, and the Trinity. You might interpret him to be supernatural, and describe him as therefore a kind of deity

[shunyadragon]

I see you have added to your post after I responded. I will go back and respond to what you added subsequently.

Christians also consider Christ human. Saying Mary is human does not answer the question, as the source I cited Mary is described as a lesser God, even above the station of the angels, and distinctly not just a human.

It answers the question for anyone who understands and does not try to misrepresent the Christian view of the Incarnation and Trinity and the Roman Catholic Church's teachings about Mary. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is a lesser God. That is merely your misrepresentation. Anyone can misunderstand or misrepresent the beliefs of others, especially if they have a polemical agenda. If you want to understand and honestly represent the beliefs or teachings of others, you need merely ask them. That is the way to start a dialogue rather than advance a merely polemical agenda.

Merely pointed out what for what reason? I never claimed henotheism in terms of station of Mary.

] I've already answered this above. If the the belief is not even that of henotheism, it is certainly not that of a more pronounced form of polytheism. I also introduced the concept of henotheism into the debate because your admission of this in Judaism cuts against your contention that Christianity is a devolution of Jewish Monotheism. Judaism was indeed evolving away from henotheism and Christianity did nothing to reverse that trend. Some Medieval Jewish theologians and later Christian theologians evolved further away from belief in demons, but to my knowledge in orthodox Christianity demons were not seen as a rival God or godes, 'though there have been dualistic heresies within Judaism and Christianity.

God allows Satan to have is own realm of evil, therefore a lesser God that must not be worshiped.

Satan is not a lesser God in the Christian understanding of God, monotheism, and the Trinity. You might interpret him to be supernatural, and describe him as therefore a kind of deity

You butchered up this post pretty badly, so I could not respond the way it was so I went through it, and made in legible, so I could respond after giving it some thought.

[shunyadragon]

I am reading over Claus Westermann's books. The three volume set comes with Genesis an Introduction book which is very helpful to begin with. I have all four books. I will start another thread on this work. It is actually an excellent work and the most comprehensive I have ever seen.

When you first brought up Westermann's works, you felt that I lacked foundation of understanding Genesis. You mention it as support of what the 'Original Author's Intent' was in Genesis. I questioned this and stated that I believed you were over stating Westermann's conclusions. I asked you to respond specifically to reference the source, ie citations with page numbers, but you failed to do this.

After my initial review of the books I still believe you are over stating Westermann's conclusions in his work.

I will start another thread to address Westermann's work on Genesis. You can respond there to support your argument.

[robrecht]

Respond to the source I cited.

I see you have added to your post after I responded. I will go back and respond to what you added subsequently.

Christians also consider Christ human. Saying Mary is human does not answer the question, as the source I cited Mary is described as a lesser God, even above the station of the angels, and distinctly not just a human.

It answers the question for anyone who understands and does not try to misrepresent the Christian view of the Incarnation and Trinity and the Roman Catholic Church's teachings about Mary. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is a lesser God. That is merely your misrepresentation. One can misunderstand or even misrepresent the beliefs of others, especially if they have a polemical agenda. But if you want to understand and honestly represent the beliefs or teachings of others, you need merely ask them. That is the way to start a dialogue rather than advance a merely polemical agenda.

Merely pointed out what for what reason? I never claimed henotheism in terms of station of Mary.

I've already answered this above. If the Catholic doctrines regarding regarding Mary do not even rise to the level of henotheism, it is certainly a more pronounced form of polytheism. I also introduced the concept of henotheism into the debate because your admission of this in Judaism works against your contention that Christianity is a devolution of Jewish Monotheism. Judaism was indeed evolving away from henotheism, especially with a strong doctrine of Creation, which Christianity accepted, and Christianity did nothing to reverse the trend away from henotheism. Christians believe they worship the same God as the Jews, 'though many Jews would not agree. Some Medieval Jewish theologians and later Christian theologians evolved further away from belief in demons, but to my knowledge in orthodox Christianity demons were never seen as a rival God or gods, 'though there have been rejected dualistic heresies within Judaism and Christianity.

God allows Satan to have is own realm of evil, therefore a lesser God that must not be worshiped.

Satan is not a lesser God in the Christian understanding of God, monotheism, and the Trinity. You might interpret him to be some kind of supernatural entity, and therefore describe him as a kind of generic deity or divine figure, but Jewish and Christian orthodoxy reject any such characterization.

[robrecht]

I am reading over Claus Westermann's books. The three volume set comes with Genesis an Introduction book which is very helpful to begin with. I have all four books. I will start another thread on this work. It is actually an excellent work and the most comprehensive I have ever seen.

When you first brought up Westermann's works, you felt that I lacked foundation of understanding Genesis. You mention it as support of what the 'Original Author's Intent' was in Genesis. I questioned this and stated that I believed you were over stating Westermann's conclusions. I asked you to respond specifically to reference the source, ie citations with page numbers, but you failed to do this.

After my initial review of the books I still believe you are over stating Westermann's conclusions in his work.

I will start another thread to address Westermann's work on Genesis. You can respond there to support your argument.

You are misrepresenting what I said about Westermann. Please use direct quotes, as I have repeatedly asked you to do.

[robrecht]

You butchered up this post pretty badly, so I could not respond the way it was so I went through it, and made in legible, so I could respond after giving it some thought.

Sorry. I was not finished with my response when I must have inadvertently hit 'post' on my phone's thumb board. It should be fixed now.

[shunyadragon]

You are misrepresenting what I said about Westermann. Please use direct quotes, as I have repeatedly asked you to do.

Feel free to clearly restate your view of Westermann's work, clarify, and please explain what you meant by your statement concerning the 'original author's intent.'

Also, what was I supposed to achieve concerning reading the reference?

[shunyadragon]

A couple of quick questions:

Did Baha'u'llah consider monarchies as the best form of government?

No, he acknowledge monarchies of the time, but did not specifically considered them the 'best form of government.' He endorsed a combination of Democracy and Monarchy as a possible form enlightened government, but did not object to a form of Republic form of government.

"Although a republican form of government profiteth all the peoples of the world, yet the majesty of kingship is one of the signs of God. We do not wish that the countries of the world should remain deprived thereof. If the sagacious combine the two forms into one, great will be their reward in the presence of God."

"The system of government which the British people have adopted in London appeareth to be good, for it is adorned with the light of both kingship and of the consultation of the people."

Baha'u'llah

What did mean by the extension and consolidation of movement of the left?

He was most likely referring to the rise of radical Communist and Socialist movements, which he said would not endure and pass away.

The retribution decreed by God the Judge against those who turned a deaf ear to the Baha'u'llah sounds similar to his view that the Jews were cursed for their lack of acceptance of further revelation in Christ and Muhammad--do you see that?

The reason to believe in the Revelation of God has consequences as does the rejection of the Manifestation of God. The rejection is a self imposed curse of the consequences of rejection. If this were not so than there would be no reason for humans to accept the Revelation as in Jesus Christ when his Revelation was Revealed to the world.