The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

[robrecht]

Yes it is your wording most definitely opens the door to such a false dichotomy. It would be best to just disagree than to use this line of reasoning.

Your objection here still seems pointless. So what if my specific language and terms can be used by others in a different way? Language exists for people to communicate, even people with differing views so, of course, specific language and terms can be used by others to make other points. I do not see that as a reason for me to refrain from using my own preferred language and terms to make my points.

For all further discussion I will make it clear there is no PROOF of the validity of the claims of religions nor the certainty of the Divine source, or inspiration of scripture.

Good. But you still have not answered my original question from more than 13 months ago. How do you to reconcile your use of this poetic text as evidence or even an example of Bahai'i revelation with your opposite claim that Baha'i revelation only pertains to spiritual laws and morality and not matters of science. Which is it?

Most religious scripture relies and refers to texts, includes texts, literature, and poetry from other sources which than becomes sacred scripture and Revelation when cited. This is true of the OT, NT, and the Quran.

Clearly I have no objection to scriptures citing other scriptures or texts. Did you really imagine that I had such an objection?

Perhaps?!?! The only ancient record was the proposal of the existence of atoms, nothing more

Which is why it would be special pleading to claim that this view originated with Leucippus or someone else, including in an otherwise unpreserved text of a Baha'i author. The 13th century Sufi and 17th century Persian poets predated any of these other putative Baha'i sources.

60 to 100 years later. That is the point.

But it is a point that is completely irrelevant to my view. I have not opposed the idea that revelation can occur through poetic inspiration and other completely natural means.

Then at this point we will have to agree to disagree. The facts are that many of the principles revealed in the Baha'i Faith in their pure form became the standard of the world as in the United Nations Charter, the Humanist Manifestos, and other modern standards of science and education.

And, as I have pointed out to you previously, Jacques Maritain, a Thomist and Christian humanist also played a pivotal role in the writing of the UN Declaration of the Rights of Man, as far as I know a much greater role than any Baha'i author. I don't claim therefore that St Thomas or Jacques Maritain or anyone else involved was therefore was the recipient of any special revelation. You have not made a coherent case that these are the result of Baha'i revelation.

[shunyadragon]

Good. But you still have not answered my original question from more than 13 months ago. How do you to reconcile your use of this poetic text as evidence or even an example of Bahai'i revelation with your opposite claim that Baha'i revelation only pertains to spiritual laws and morality and not matters of science. Which is it?

You miss represent me again.

I did not make that any such claim. I only said that the 'infallibility' of the writings only applies to spiritual laws and morality as I cited directly from the writings. The writings apply to many subjects, and commonly with commentary. I also stated repeatedly that the principles of the Baha'i writings lie at foundation of Baha'i Revelation and guidance for humanity. Matters of science are address throughout the writings and specifically in the Principles of the Harmony and Religion as cited.

[robrecht]

You miss represent me again.

I did not make that any such claim. I only said that the 'infallibility' of the writings only applies to spiritual laws and morality as I cited directly from the writings. The writings apply to many subjects, and commonly with commentary. I also stated repeatedly that the principles of the Baha'i writings lie at foundation of Baha'i Revelation and guidance for humanity. Matters of science are address throughout the writings and specifically in the Principles of the Harmony and Religion as cited.

It is silly to claim that I am misrepresenting you when I was in fact asking you to clarify something. But I just went back to check and see if I was misremembering my question from 13 months ago. At the time you said nothing about infallibility but merely spoke of Baha'i revelation generally and said that the statement is often interpreted spiritually, as describing the physical relationship between energy and matter (E=mc2), which I would not consider nonetheless a matter of the physical sciences.

[shunyadragon]

It is silly to claim that I am misrepresenting you when I was in fact asking you to clarify something. But I just went back to check and see if I was misremembering my question from 13 months ago. At the time you said nothing about infallibility but merely spoke of Baha'i revelation generally and said that the statement is often interpreted spiritually, as describing the physical relationship between energy and matter (E=mc2), which I would not consider nonetheless a matter of the physical sciences.

It was other posts that I made this distinction, which you have not cited yet.

This part was not a question. It was an accusation worded as sort of a question.

Good. But you still have not answered my original question from more than 13 months ago. How do you to reconcile your use of this poetic text as evidence or even an example of Bahai'i revelation with your opposite claim that Baha'i revelation only pertains to spiritual laws and morality and not matters of science. Which is it?

[robrecht]

It was other posts that I made this distinction, which you have not cited yet.

This part was not a question. It was an accusation worded as sort of a question.

Good. But you still have not answered my original question from more than 13 months ago. How do you to reconcile your use of this poetic text as evidence or even an example of Bahai'i revelation with your opposite claim that Baha'i revelation only pertains to spiritual laws and morality and not matters of science. Which is it?

Nonsense. It was nothing but a question, asking how you would clarify what seemed like opposing statement. We discussed your view of your infallibility of Baha'i scriptures at another time but not with respect to this particular text, which, in fact, is not even part of Baha'i holy scriptures, if I understand correctly. With respect to my question, I still don't believe you have given a clear answer. You've mentioned spiritual interpretations of this statement, but have also said it is about matter and energy and the equation, E = mc². Matter and energy and this equation of their relation seems to me to pertain to the physical sciences and not spirituality, unless perhaps you consider energy to relate to some kind of spiritual energy perhaps??? That would seem strange to me if that is your intended meaning, I still have the same question, is this statement about science or spirituality?

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense. It was nothing but a question, asking how you would clarify what seemed like opposing statement. We discussed your view of your infallibility of Baha'i scriptures at another time but not with respect to this particular text, which, in fact, is not even part of Baha'i holy scriptures, if I understand correctly. With respect to my question, I still don't believe you have given a clear answer. You've mentioned spiritual interpretations of this statement, but have also said it is about matter and energy and the equation, E = mc². Matter and energy and this equation of their relation seems to me to pertain to the physical sciences and not spirituality, unless perhaps you consider energy to relate to some kind of spiritual energy perhaps??? That would seem strange to me if that is your intended meaning, I still have the same question, is this statement about science or spirituality?

This unique foundation principle is described in the following by Abdul'baha. One question that is answered here specifically is; 'When are the Baha'i Writings literal and do not change, and how are the commentary about our physical existence in the writings considered. The moral laws of the Baha'i writings are logically correct, immutable and will not change.

"Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

Paris Talks, Pages 141-146: gr16

It is the moral teaching that are immutable and absolute.

Harmony of Science and Religion

Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Baha'u'llah declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason. If religious belief and doctrine is at variance with reason, it proceeds from the limited mind of man and not from God; therefore, it is unworthy of belief and not deserving of attention; the heart finds no rest in it, and real faith is impossible. How can man believe that which he knows to be opposed to reason? Is this possible? Can the heart accept that which reason denies? Reason is the first faculty of man, and the religion of God is in harmony with it. Baha'u'llah has removed this form of dissension and discord from among mankind and reconciled science . . .

The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 228-235: gr9

Among other principles of Baha'u'llah's teachings was the harmony of science and religion. Religion must stand the analysis of reason. It must agree with scientific fact and proof so that science will sanction religion and religion fortify science. Both are indissolubly welded and joined in reality. If statements and teachings of religion are found to be unreasonable and contrary to science, they are outcomes of superstition and imagination. . . The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 172-176: gr9

[robrecht]

²?

[shunyadragon]

²?

It can be interpreted both spiritually and literally in terms of science. In terms of science it is defining the nature of the atom as having a center, being divisible, and the relationship between energy and matter.

A great deal of the Baha'i writings particularly the more mystical like the Seven Valleys and Four Valleys may have multiple interpretations. The Spiritual Laws are not as flexible and only open to limited interpretation except for translation issues. The principles of the Baha'i Faith are open to limited interpretation, but for the most part are specific as to their teaching, such as the; Mandatory universal education of all children. In this case there may be interpretation such as; How much education is mandatory, and what this education consists of.

Spiritual Laws are for the most part fixed, but the nature of their application may be flexible based on other principles and changes in the evolution of scientific knowledge and the needs of society. The spiritual law prohibiting homosexual acts, and celibacy out side marriage will not change. Many years ago the Baha'i Faith clarified its application acknowledging that the Baha'i Faith acknowledges the separation of religion and state, and should not interfere with secular civil laws governing homosexual relationships and civil marriages involving homosexuals. The question whether homosexual behavior is treatable or not would ultimately be a question of science. Being considered untreatable in some or most cases as what the trend is in the knowledge of science, does not change the basic spiritual law. As with all human behavior, being natural and untreatable does make it morally acceptable.

[robrecht]

It can be interpreted both spiritually and literally in terms of science. In terms of science it is defining the nature of the atom as having a center, being divisible, and the relationship between energy and matter.

A great deal of the Baha'i writings particularly the more mystical like the Seven Valleys and Four Valleys may have multiple interpretations. The Spiritual Laws are not as flexible and only open to limited interpretation except for translation issues. The principles of the Baha'i Faith are open to limited interpretation, but for the most part are specific as to their teaching, such as the; Mandatory universal education of all children. In this case there may be interpretation such as; How much education is mandatory, and what this education consists of.

Spiritual Laws are for the most part fixed, but the nature of their application may be flexible based on other principles and changes in the evolution of scientific knowledge and the needs of society. The spiritual law prohibiting homosexual acts, and celibacy out side marriage will not change. Many years ago the Baha'i Faith clarified its application acknowledging that the Baha'i Faith acknowledges the separation of religion and state, and should not interfere with secular civil laws governing homosexual relationships and civil marriages involving homosexuals. The question whether homosexual behavior is treatable or not would ultimately be a question of science. Being considered untreatable in some or most cases as what the trend is in the knowledge of science, does not change the basic spiritual law. As with all human behavior, being natural and untreatable does make it morally acceptable.

[shunyadragon]

There is considerable work by scholars on the history of the Baha'i Faith, the translation of the writings (which have not all been translated), and the application of the spiritual laws and principles to the actual application to the evolving world, but the original specific meaning of many of the more mystical and spiritual writings I do not believe there is any effort at present. There are many books, and related research on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam on the relationship and meaning of scripture related to the Baha'i Faith. There are numerous Theological and Philosophical studies and publication, but there is no efforts to nail down specific meanings, in part because I believe specific literal interpretations of these works are avoided. The following are some of the works that I have read or know off.

Hatcher, John S. 2005. Close Connections - The Bridge between Spiritual and Physical Reality.

Murkie, Guy. Music of the Spheres, Song of the Sky, and Men of the Sky, and Men of the Horizon. Philosophical works on the spiritual nature of our physical existence. It does not specifically interpret the writings but quotes the writings. You'll be disappointed here if you if your looking for specifics.

For some internet sources on science and the Baha'i Faith:

http://bahaiteachings.org/god-infinity-and-black-holes

http://bahai-library.com/mihrshahi_e...uantum_physics

[robrecht]

There is considerable work by scholars on the history of the Baha'i Faith, the translation of the writings (which have not all been translated), and the application of the spiritual laws and principles to the actual application to the evolving world, but the original specific meaning of many of the more mystical and spiritual writings I do not believe there is any effort at present. There are many books, and related research on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam on the relationship and meaning of scripture related to the Baha'i Faith. There are numerous Theological and Philosophical studies and publication, but there is no efforts to nail down specific meanings, in part because I believe specific literal interpretations of these works are avoided. The following are some of the works that I have read or know off.

Hatcher, John S. 2005. Close Connections - The Bridge between Spiritual and Physical Reality.

Murkie, Guy. Music of the Spheres, Song of the Sky, and Men of the Sky, and Men of the Horizon. Philosophical works on the spiritual nature of our physical existence. It does not specifically interpret the writings but quotes the writings. You'll be disappointed here if you if your looking for specifics.

For some internet sources on science and the Baha'i Faith:

http://bahaiteachings.org/god-infinity-and-black-holes

http://bahai-library.com/mihrshahi_e...uantum_physics

Do you know if the original statement about splitting the atom is in Arabic or Farsi, or some other language?

[shunyadragon]

Do you know if the original statement about splitting the atom is in Arabic or Farsi, or some other language?

I am pretty sure it is Farsi, because the Seven Valleys were addressed to Persian Sufi, and Four Valleys were addressed to a Persian scholar. Baha'u'llah wrote works in both languages. For example, the Hidden Words are half Farsi and half Arabic.

[robrecht]

Shuny, another question about Baha'i revelation. If I remember correctly, you've said that Baha'i revelation is about spiritual laws and not about science, correct? But I also see you quoting Baha'u'llah's saying, 'Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun,' and I think your implication is that this must have been revealed to Baha'u'llah because such knowledge of atomic energy was not yet known scientifically.

... Previously I cited this kernel of knowledge revealed in the Baha'i writings, and it is very very unlikely that this could be "revealed may be known through fallible human reasoning and intuition."

From the Seven Valleys and Four Valleys by Baha'u'llah:

Split the atom's heart, and lo!
Within it thou will find a sun.

At the time science did not acknowledge that the atom existed. When it was determined to exist, it was considered indivisible. It was not until the twentieth century that the atom was known to have a heart (the nucleus) and the heart was divisible by nuclear fission, and the energy released as in E=mc2.

60 to 100 years later. That is the point.

It can be interpreted both spiritually and literally in terms of science. In terms of science it is defining the nature of the atom as having a center, being divisible, and the relationship between energy and matter. ...

[shunyadragon]

Yes, it is my interpretation of the citation. I do not believe that 'attempting to teach' is a correct understanding of the 'what and how?' of revelation. The writings are revealed both through the writings and through the minds of humanity by what may be called Revelation of wisdom and knowledge. The transformation of the world is very real in terms of knowledge, principles and wisdom released in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. You may say and interpret the change as 'explainable' by humanist intellect, ok, but it is here we disagree. I believe there is a basis for my view based on the evidence in the history of the 19th and 20th century.

As far as the United Nations, the Baha'i Faith was involved in the process of the forming of the United Nations and it's Charter from the beginning. The Charter was not just written by one man. I will provide sources. Note: The United Nations organization and elected structure is very similar to that of the Baha'i Faith.

[robrecht]

Yes, it is my interpretation of the citation. I do not believe that 'attempting to teach' is a correct understanding of the 'what and how?' of revelation. The writings are revealed both through the writings and through the minds of humanity by what may be called Revelation of wisdom and knowledge. The transformation of the world is very real in terms of knowledge, principles and wisdom released in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. You may say and interpret the change as 'explainable' by humanist intellect, ok, but it is here we disagree. I believe there is a basis for my view based on the evidence in the history of the 19th and 20th century.