The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

[robrecht]

No problem, I have acknowledged that henotheism remains a problem in history Judaism and scrpture, in part because scripture including those found in Qumran have ancient roots. I remains at this time the dominant view remains their is only One true God.

The whole history of all the Jewish scripture demonstrates that devolution of belief occurs throughout history. Actually if you include the Devil or Satan as a lesser God, than the devolution in Christianity devolves into henotheism. Adding the special Divine nature of Mary as a lesser Goddess, as in ancient views of Judaism, in the Roman Church demonstrates that devolution into polytheism is a reality.

In Judaism it remains the modern spiritual evolution of beliefs is definitely toward pure Monotheism since the time of Christ.

I do not deny that there are remnants of pagan or classical spirituality within Roman Catholicism, indeed this is sometimes seen as a syncretistic or incarnational value of catholic culture whereby human cultures are accepted and baptized into a more human expression of inculturated communal belief as opposed to more world-denying expressions of sola scriptura

[shunyadragon]

This represents an enlightened evolution of your belief. Previously you thought that a new revelation would be necessary for such a change in Baha'i practice.

Revelation can take place through a decision of the Universal House of Justice, if it is an interpretation of existing scripture, or by a future messianic Revelation. The Roman Church offers no such opportunity.

This is not really true except insofar as you are defining things in special terms of Baha'i 'Revelation' and 'spiritual law'. Believers in other religions and unbelievers do not require the justification of a new messianic revelation or new spiritual laws to advocate and make progress along these lines. Various Christian churches already ordain women to the highest leadership roles within their institutions, something the Baha'i faith does not allow, while nonetheless you still want to claim that your Revelation and Spiritual Law are more progressive than any other 'Revelation'. Now that you agree that a new messianic revelation is not necessarily required for Baha'i to make this type of progress, the appeal to the most progressive Revelation and the greatest spiritual laws in history rings even more hollow.

Of course, you reject it for various reasons found in your own beliefs, but yes, the Baha'i Faith believes that the Revelation also takes place through the minds of humans as well as through the Revelation itself. This is by way of the Holy Spirit.

The Baha'i prohibition against women serving in leadership roles within the Baha'i Universal House of Justice does indeed remind me of Roman opposition to ordination of women to leadership positions.

It may remind you of it, but the hierarchy of the Roman Church has pretty much shut down any opportunity for change. The Baha'i Faith has not shut that door. The writings of the Baha'i faith declare more specific rights in its spiritual laws than any other ancient religion in the world. In the modern world the Humanist Manifestos parallel the Baha'i principles of the Baha'i Faith and yes proclaim equal rights of women universally. These humanist documents probably do allow women in leadership positions to highest level in their religious institution, unfortunately Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have no scripture to support any such position, therefore their positions vary from church to church, without any consistency.

Your claim elsewhere that the transformation of world toward greater equality and freedom is somehow mysteriously related to Baha'i Revelation, even among those that have never heard of Baha'i revelation, has never been justified. Recall, I have compared this to a kind of 'magical thinking'. I've seen other Baha'i discuss this without giving credit to Baha'i revelation for changes in the world where very few have ever heard of the Baha'i faith. Rather they believe that the progress is taking place of its own accord wherever it takes place and that it has been in cultures that are much less likely for such changes to take place through reasonable and normal sociological means where revelation and an appeal to special revelation might be needed to start to bring about such changes, which is consequently where Baha'i revelation has occurred. That to me sounds much more reasonable. Have you come across this line of thinking among your fellow Baha'i believers?

It may sound mysterious to you which is odd for someone who does believe in mysterious things. Yes, the Baha'i Faith believes that Revelation takes place through the minds of humans even though they have no direct knowledge of the fact. As far as the churches go they have had knowledge of the Baha'i Faith since the 19th century. Letters were sent to all the leaders of the world by Baha'u'llah and some acknowledged the letters. Libraries of the Baha'i writing have been in Rome, The Church of England since the early 20th century. A play was composed in Europe concerning the life of Tahirah in the 19th century. Queen Marie of Romania became a Baha'i during this time. In the early 20th century knowledge was very wide spread and available in University libraries and even described in the World Parliament of Religions in Chicago.

Ignorance in this case is no excuse.

[robrecht]

Revelation can take place through a decision of the Universal House of Justice, if it is an interpretation of existing scripture, or by a future messianic Revelation. The Roman Church offers no such opportunity.

I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I think I recall Sen McGlynn clarifying for you and me that the Universal House of Justice does not claim any authority to interpret the scriptures. The Catholic and most Protestant churches do indeed recognize the authority of at least some ecumenical councils to define beliefs and this is indeed by some considered revelation. And, of course, Roman Catholics and those Eastern churches in communion with Rome recognize the role of the pope to define belief in practice. As for future messianic revelation, there are various forms of belief in a second coming or parousia.

Of course, you reject it for various reasons found in your own beliefs, but yes, the Baha'i Faith believes that the Revelation also takes place through the minds of humans as well as through the Revelation itself. This is by way of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure why you think I reject this. I strongly advocate the use of reason to understand revelation and certainly believe that our reason can be inspired by the Holy Spirit to better understand and to arrive at an intuitive recognition of revelation. For me it is not an either/or relation of the mind and revelation but a both/and combination of all human capacities to ascertain goodness.

It may remind you of it, but the hierarchy of the Roman Church has pretty much shut down any opportunity for change. The Baha'i Faith has not shut that door. The writings of the Baha'i faith declare more specific rights in its spiritual laws than any other ancient religion in the world. In the modern world the Humanist Manifestos parallel the Baha'i principles of the Baha'i Faith and yes proclaim equal rights of women universally. These humanist documents probably do allow women in leadership positions to highest level in their religious institution, unfortunately Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have no scripture to support any such position, therefore their positions vary from church to church, without any consistency.

Inconsistency is part of human life and is found among Baha'is as well. The fact remains that some mainline Christian churches do allow women to hold the highest leadership roles, whereas the Baha'i do not.

It may sound mysterious to you which is odd for someone who does believe in mysterious things. Yes, the Baha'i Faith believes that Revelation takes place through the minds of humans even though they have no direct knowledge of the fact. As far as the churches go they have had knowledge of the Baha'i Faith since the 19th century. Letters were sent to all the leaders of the world by Baha'u'llah and some acknowledged the letters. Libraries of the Baha'i writing have been in Rome, The Church of England since the early 20th century. A play was composed in Europe concerning the life of Tahirah in the 19th century. Queen Marie of Romania became a Baha'i during this time. In the early 20th century knowledge was very wide spread and available in University libraries and even described in the World Parliament of Religions in Chicago.

Ignorance in this case is no excuse.

Letters. Sure. Even newspaper articles. But that does not really explain larger social changes. Where there are other perfectly valid rational explanations for sociological progress and development on a large scale, I see no reason to appeal to more mysterious or unlikely causality. I asked if you were aware of other Baha'i who take a similar position to mine.

[shunyadragon]

Balderdash. I have never seen you admit to being wrong, even when (as in this case) the facts clearly controvert your position. I am quite fallible, and I am confident that those present at the first Council of Nicaea would admit the same.

Actually, check with Robrecht. There are a number of points I conceded to him where I was wrong.

Then the Council of Nicaea decision may not be correct.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=robrecht;244607]
I'm not sure why you think I reject this. I strongly advocate the use of reason to understand revelation and certainly believe that our reason can be inspired by the Holy Spirit to better understand and to arrive at an intuitive recognition of revelation. For me it is not an either/or relation of the mind and revelation but a both/and combination of all human capacities to ascertain goodness.

Inconsistency is part of human life and is found among Baha'is as well. The fact remains that some mainline Christian churches do allow women to hold the highest leadership roles, whereas the Baha'i do not.

These churches do not rely on scripture, nor spiritual revealed laws to determine this.

Letters. Sure. Even newspaper articles. But that does not really explain larger social changes. Where there are other perfectly valid rational explanations for sociological progress and development on a large scale, I see no reason to appeal to more mysterious or unlikely causality.

No, also books, some published by Christians.

The history of humanity follows a similar evolving spiritual pattern without any knowledge of the other cultures. The evolved from animism, nature worship, animal and human sacrifice, to polytheism, to symbolic sacrifice, to henotheism, to monotheism, and their spiritual laws and secular laws also evolved in a similar way without any contact between these cultures.

It is a fact that the pure forms of these principles occurred in the Baha'i writings, regardless of some less pure forms occurring in the rest of the world. Some principles, like the 'Mandatory requirement of universal education for all children,' occurred first in the Baha'i Revelation. The absolute Harmony of Science and Religion. where ALL scripture must be understood in the light of science does not occur in any other religion. It is the development of Methodological Naturalism.

We will have to disagree to disagree.

You can account for this by the humanist natural view, or that the spiritual nature of humanity evolved through Revelation. In my view by way of Progressive Revelation, indirect Revelation through the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe the latter.

I asked if you were aware of other Baha'i who take a similar position to mine.

No.

[shunyadragon]

The Catholic and most Protestant churches do indeed recognize the authority of at least some ecumenical councils to define beliefs and this is indeed by some considered revelation. And, of course, Roman Catholics and those Eastern churches in communion with Rome recognize the role of the pope to define belief in practice. As for future messianic revelation, there are various forms of belief in a second coming or parousia.

I do not believe this is realistic for any change in the Roman Church on the issues we are discussing, in part because at least several popes have declared that the role of women in the church cannot change based on infallible scripture understanding as previously cited. No, in the Roman Church there is no avenue of change on this and many other beliefs of the church.

As far as other churches, they can change and form new churches at whim, even the acceptance of homosexual acts are acceptable under God's Law.

[shunyadragon]

. . . clarifying for you and me that the Universal House of Justice does not claim any authority to interpret the scriptures.

Your correct concerning existing known translations. But if translations change, and I believe there is some question concerning the previous translation, or other scripture not translated shed new light on the question the understanding of the scripture may change.

[robrecht]

These churches do not rely on scripture, nor spiritual revealed laws to determine this.

Sometimes they have relied partly upon scripture, either larger principles or examples of women deacons and an apostle mentioned by Paul. Sometimes it is in reliance upon some sense of inspired leadership in hierarchical churches, but mostly it is common sense and openness to the wider culture, just as most Jews and Christians do not need scriptural authority to recognize the value of science. That's not to deny that there are forms of anti-intellecutualism that have been foundational in some Christian sects, especially those that fled larger, institutional and state churches in Europe to America.

No, also books, some published by Christians.

The history of humanity follows a similar evolving spiritual pattern without any knowledge of the other cultures. The evolved from animism, nature worship, animal and human sacrifice, to polytheism, to symbolic sacrifice, to henotheism, to monotheism, and their spiritual laws and secular laws also evolved in a similar way without any contact between these cultures.

It is a fact that the pure forms of these principles occurred in the Baha'i writings, regardless of some less pure forms occurring in the rest of the world. Some principles, like the 'Mandatory requirement of universal education for all children,' occurred first in the Baha'i Revelation. The absolute Harmony of Science and Religion. where ALL scripture must be understood in the light of science does not occur in any other religion. It is the development of Methodological Naturalism.

We will have to disagree to disagree.

You can account for this by the humanist natural view, or that the spiritual nature of humanity evolved through Revelation. In my view by way of Progressive Revelation, indirect Revelation through the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe the latter.

In the Catholic tradition, this need not be an either/or dichotomy. God is only known through nature and reason and humanism began within Christian culture and only much later became quasi-synonymous with atheism/agnosticism.

No.

If I come across them again, I will point you toward them.

[robrecht]

I do not believe this is realistic for any change in the Roman Church on the issues we are discussing, in part because at least several popes have declared that the role of women in the church cannot change based on infallible scripture understanding as previously cited. No, in the Roman Church there is no avenue of change on this and many other beliefs of the church.

As far as other churches, they can change and form new churches at whim, even the acceptance of homosexual acts are acceptable under God's Law.

With respect to the roles of women or the acceptance of homosexuality, it is usually the opposite development. A larger, more liberal institutional church or synod progressively accepts the larger societal trends, and then more traditional churches break away that do not want to accept any change.

[shunyadragon]

Robrecht

The following in the Jewish view is similar to the Baha'i Faith on imparting wisdom and knowledge to humanity by way of the holy Spirit from scripture.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7833-holy-spirit

He pours out His own spirit upon all whom He has chosen to execute His will and behests, and this spirit imbues them with higher reason and powers, making them capable of heroic speech and action (Gen. xli. 38; Ex. xxxi. 3; Num. xxiv. 2; Judges iii. 10; II Sam. xxiii. 2). This special spirit of God rests upon man (Isa. xi. 2, xlii. 1); it surrounds him like a garment (Judges vi. 34; II Chron. xxiv. 20); it falls upon him and holds him like a hand (Ezek. xi. 5, xxxvii. 1). It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17). It may enter into man and speak with his voice (II Sam. xxiii. 2; Ezek. ii. 2; comp. Jer. x. 14). The prophet sees and hears by means of the spirit (Num. xxiv. 2; I Sam. x. 6; II Sam. xxiii. 2; Isa. xlii. 1; Zech. vii. 12). The Messianic passage in Joel ii. 28-29, to which special significance was subsequently attached, is characteristic of the view regarding the nature of the spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit."

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

With respect to the roles of women or the acceptance of homosexuality, it is usually the opposite development. A larger, more liberal institutional church or synod progressively accepts the larger societal trends, and then more traditional churches break away that do not want to accept any change.

sounds like a more humanist approach within subcultures, than anything that is inspired from scripture.

[shunyadragon]

Sometimes they have relied partly upon scripture, either larger principles or examples of women deacons and an apostle mentioned by Paul. Sometimes it is in reliance upon some sense of inspired leadership in hierarchical churches, but mostly it is common sense and openness to the wider culture, just as most Jews and Christians do not need scriptural authority to recognize the value of science. That's not to deny that there are forms of anti-intellecutualism that have been foundational in some Christian sects, especially those that fled larger, institutional and state churches in Europe to America.

Like many other attempts at reform, this is a distinctly humanist way varying from church to church, and culture to culture, and not inspired by any specific Christian scripture widely understood in Christianity.

In the Catholic tradition, this need not be an either/or dichotomy. God is only known through nature and reason and humanism began within Christian culture and only much later became quasi-synonymous with atheism/agnosticism.

Two different and separate concepts of humanism. To be clear I am referring to appealing to human reasoning and knowledge alone as the inspiration of belief and change.

If I come across them again, I will point you toward them.

I will not hold my breath. I would prefer you point to something more substance like Baha'i scripture.

[shunyadragon]

Robrecht

This may add some understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit in Revelation.

Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bhi/aqdas.htm

Indeed, the laws of God are like unto the ocean and the children of men as fish, did they but know it. However, in observing them one must exercise tact and wisdom... Since most people are feeble and far-removed from the purpose of God, therefore one must observe tact and prudence under all conditions, so that nothing might happen that could cause disturbance and dissension or raise clamour among the heedless. Verily, His bounty hath surpassed the whole universe and His bestowals encompassed all that dwell on earth. One must guide mankind to the ocean of true understanding in a spirit of love and tolerance. The Kitab-i-Aqdas itself beareth eloquent testimony to the loving providence of God.

© Copyright Original Source

[robrecht]

Robrecht

The following in the Jewish view is similar to the Baha'i Faith on imparting wisdom and knowledge to humanity by way of the holy Spirit from scripture.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7833-holy-spirit

He pours out His own spirit upon all whom He has chosen to execute His will and behests, and this spirit imbues them with higher reason and powers, making them capable of heroic speech and action (Gen. xli. 38; Ex. xxxi. 3; Num. xxiv. 2; Judges iii. 10; II Sam. xxiii. 2). This special spirit of God rests upon man (Isa. xi. 2, xlii. 1); it surrounds him like a garment (Judges vi. 34; II Chron. xxiv. 20); it falls upon him and holds him like a hand (Ezek. xi. 5, xxxvii. 1). It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17). It may enter into man and speak with his voice (II Sam. xxiii. 2; Ezek. ii. 2; comp. Jer. x. 14). The prophet sees and hears by means of the spirit (Num. xxiv. 2; I Sam. x. 6; II Sam. xxiii. 2; Isa. xlii. 1; Zech. vii. 12). The Messianic passage in Joel ii. 28-29, to which special significance was subsequently attached, is characteristic of the view regarding the nature of the spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit."

© Copyright Original Source

This is no different from the traditional Christian view.

[shunyadragon]

This is no different from the traditional Christian view.

Then you have no problem with the receiving of indirect knowledge via the Holy Spirit beyond the knowledge of the written Revelation itself.

Yes there is a difference. There is no personification of the Holy Spirit here.