The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

[shunyadragon]

As I said, I understood your point, but can you now at least see why it is indeed humorous that your source did not even understand Hebrew?

I believe you are conflating the problem. In review of the two sources, the difference I saw was the Jewish Encyclopedia gave more information. There is no need to dwell on this.

[shunyadragon]

Oh, by the way, can I take the above statement as an implicit concession that you were wrong to previously claim repeatedly that my use of the terms 'theological reflection' was a concoction of my own?

Yes

[robrecht]

I consider the Jewish description helpful, because it is grounded in OT scripture, and defines one of the three expressions of the Divine compatible with my belief and that of the Baha'i Faith. The concept of God is also in harmony with the Jewish view of God. The third expression the Messiah is the next to describe in terms of the Bha'i Faith, and You gave one reference for that.

You should be a little more nuanced since you also like to make the point that the Jewish scriptures also betray evidence of polytheism within Israel and early Judaism, sometimes more specifically referred to as henotheism (worshipping, following one God, while nonetheless believing in the existence of other gods, variously interpreted). See, for example, the various ways in which a currently strong monotheistic statement like the Shema can be better translated in its original context, eg, along the lines of the NRSV, Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH alone. Or in the Ten Commandments: I YHWH am your God ... there shall not be for you other gods before me. As we've already seen, this sense of henotheism can be found still at Qumran and even later with respect to idols even being interpreted as demonic by some.

[robrecht]

I believe you are conflating the problem. In review of the two sources, the difference I saw was the Jewish Encyclopedia gave more information. There is no need to dwell on this.

If you cannot appreciate the humor of the situation ...

[shunyadragon]

You should be a little more nuanced since you also like to make the point that the Jewish scriptures also betray evidence of polytheism within Israel and early Judaism, sometimes more specifically referred to as henotheism (worshipping, following one God, while nonetheless believing in the existence of other gods, variously interpreted). See, for example, the various ways in which a currently strong monotheistic statement like the Shema can be better translated in its original context, eg, along the lines of the NRSV, Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH alone. Or in the Ten Commandments: I YHWH am your God ... there shall not be for you other gods before me. As we've already seen, this sense of henotheism can be found still at Qumran and even later with respect to idols even being interpreted as demonic by some.

This has been discussed at length in other threads. The concept that the OT represents an evolved theology from polytheism in Pre Babylonian, Sumerian, Ugarit texts and beliefs, specifically evidence was found that a female God was also worshiped. Then to Henotheism where the Command is to worship no other God but the one true God, and periodically idol worship is found throughout. I do believe that in the Intent of God through revelation was to lead people back again and again to Monotheism. Also it is apparent in some arguments for the Trinity, ancient possible OT references to a polytheism are given as evidence for the Trinity. I believe the problem persists today. The belief in the station of Mary in the Roman Church and the Devil may be interpreted as lesser Gods in a polytheistic framework.

I believe in recent history and today Judaism is truly Monotheistic. The Baha'i Faith teaches a return to pure universal Monotheism.

[shunyadragon]

If you cannot appreciate the humor of the situation ...

The intent was the belief in the nature of the Holy Spirit. The reference satisfied that.

[robrecht]

This has been discussed at length in other threads. The concept that the OT represents an evolved theology from polytheism in Pre Babylonian, Sumerian, Ugarit texts and beliefs, specifically evidence was found that a female God was also worshiped. Then to Henotheism where the Command is to worship no other God but the one true God, and periodically idol worship is found throughout. I do believe that in the Intent of God through revelation was to lead people back again and again to Monotheism. Also it is apparent in some arguments for the Trinity, ancient possible OT references to a polytheism are given as evidence for the Trinity. I believe the problem persists today. The belief in the station of Mary in the Roman Church and the Devil may be interpreted as lesser Gods in a polytheistic framework.

I believe in recent history and today Judaism is truly Monotheistic. The Baha'i Faith teaches a return to pure universal Monotheism.

Of course, present day Judaism is monotheistic, but if you are appealing to the Hebrew scriptures, you should not ignore their time of composition and the state of the text found at Qumran. That was my point. If you believe Christianity was a devolution from Jewish monotheism, as you seem to argue at times, you cannot ignore this methodologically.

[robrecht]

The intent was the belief in the nature of the Holy Spirit. The reference satisfied that.

But you still argued that my comment was not humorous. Why suck the humor out of everything? If you can't laugh at yourself and your sources, then laughing at others is little more than derision.

[robrecht]

Yes

Good. So now that this red herring has finally been allowed to swim away after nearly a year, perhaps we can get back to the initial issue being discussed. Why believe that Baha'i opposition to slavery and inequality of women is a matter of revelation when it occurs in other traditions as the result of mere theological reflection and evolution of views? And why would it take a new revelation for Baha'i to allow women to serve as equals in the Universal House of Justice? Why couldn't some smart Baha'i theologians or even nontheologian Baha'is merely reflect upon the way in which society is evolving and recognize the justice of making such a change?

[shunyadragon]

Of course, present day Judaism is monotheistic, but if you are appealing to the Hebrew scriptures, you should not ignore their time of composition and the state of the text found at Qumran. That was my point. If you believe Christianity was a devolution from Jewish monotheism, as you seem to argue at times, you cannot ignore this methodologically.

I do not ignore this methodology. I am familiar with the texts at Qumran, and I consider the Qumran community a sect and not mainstream Judaism of the time. I believe that the Dominant view was Monotheistic at the time of Christ with some variation, especially among the Hellenist Jews. I do believe that Christianity is a devolution of Jewish Monotheism.

[shunyadragon]

Good. So now that this red herring has finally been allowed to swim away after nearly a year, perhaps we can get back to the initial issue being discussed. Why believe that Baha'i opposition to slavery and inequality of women is a matter of revelation when it occurs in other traditions as the result of mere theological reflection and evolution of views? And why would it take a new revelation for Baha'i to allow women to serve as equals in the Universal House of Justice? Why couldn't some smart Baha'i theologians or even nontheologian Baha'is merely reflect upon the way in which society is evolving and recognize the justice of making such a change?

If you want digress to the old disagreement. Yes, I believe that these attributes are a product of spiritual evolution are the product of Revelation through the Baha'i Revelation and ALL previous Revelations such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam and their writings, and through the minds of humans. The process of Revelation can come through the minds of humans also as well as through the Revelation itself in the pure form. This true throughout the evolving spiritual nature of humanity. There are other principles revealed in the Baha'i Revelation such as mandatory universal education for all children, and the Harmony of science and religion where ALL scripture including the Baha'i writings must be understood in the light of science. These principles of the Baha'i Faith have become the universal standards for the world.

The slavery issue is an interesting problem for humanity. No religion until the Baha'i Revelation absolutely prohibited all kinds of slavery and indentured servitude as against God's Law. Before the Baha'i Revelation, the Islamic Revelation did not outlaw slavery, but considered it enlightened to free slaves. Before the Baha'i Revelation there were some movements to free slavery as in the British Commonwealth, but this was inconsistent. It was easily prohibited in the British Isles where slavery did not have an important economic foundation, but in the colonies slavery continued in various forms where there was an economic foundation for slavery, and was only completely outlawed much later. This follows somewhat the Islamic Revelation on the view of slavery.

It still remains that 'theological reflection' in and of itself is not a measure of truth in any religion. This obviously takes place in many different religions, churches and various other beliefs and non-beliefs with highly variable inconsistent results.

As far as whether woman may serve on the Universal House of Justice, this change may come through a decision of the Universal House of Justice in the future, or it may come in a future messianic Revelation. The Revelation of the Baha'i Faith goes further than any other Revelation in history to advance the roll of women in society and religion, and advocates continued change in the future. On the other hand the Revelations off Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do not have spiritual laws that go this far. I do not need to wait for a change, because in the Baha'i writings the rights of women are defined by spiritual law greater than any other revelation in history.

As far as the Roman Church there is no guidance in spiritual laws in scripture to advance the change of religion in society nor for changes in their role in the church for women. Despite efforts to of some to propose change through reform in the church has basically shut the door for any future change.

[robrecht]

I do not ignore this methodology. I am familiar with the texts at Qumran, and I consider the Qumran community a sect and not mainstream Judaism of the time. I believe that the Dominant view was Monotheistic at the time of Christ with some variation, especially among the Hellenist Jews. I do believe that Christianity is a devolution of Jewish Monotheism.

I am not speaking of sectarian texts but of the oldest biblical texts discovered at Qumran, specifically textual variants judged by textual critics to be the original text and the text form still existing at that time. We see at that time a biblical text that is clearly henotheistic rather than monotheistic, thus not supportive of a view of Christianity as a devolution of monotheistic beliefs toward polytheism. Do you have any evidence to support this belief yours?

[shunyadragon]

I am not speaking of sectarian texts but of the oldest biblical texts discovered at Qumran, specifically textual variants judged by textual critics to be the original text and the text form still existing at that time. We see at that time a biblical text that is clearly henotheistic rather than monotheistic,

No problem, I have acknowledged that henotheism remains a problem in history Judaism and scrpture, in part because scripture including those found in Qumran have ancient roots. I remains at this time the dominant view remains their is only One true God.

. . . thus not supportive of a view of Christianity as a devolution of monotheistic beliefs toward polytheism. Do you have any evidence to support this belief yours?

The whole history of all the Jewish scripture demonstrates that devolution of belief occurs throughout history. Actually if you include the Devil or Satan as a lesser God, than the devolution in Christianity devolves into henotheism. Adding the special Divine nature of Mary as a lesser Goddess, as in ancient views of Judaism, in the Roman Church demonstrates that devolution into polytheism is a reality.

In Judaism it remains the modern spiritual evolution of beliefs is definitely toward pure Monotheism since the time of Christ.

[One Bad Pig]

No, unlike you, I admit to be a fallible human as well as those at the Council of Nicaea.

Balderdash. I have never seen you admit to being wrong, even when (as in this case) the facts clearly controvert your position. I am quite fallible, and I am confident that those present at the first Council of Nicaea would admit the same.

[robrecht]

If you want digress to the old disagreement.

It is not a digression, but relates directly to your justification for your Baha'i theistic beliefs, which is directly related to the title of this thread. Our discussion started out as a discussion of revelation, and I think you've stated a couple of times that you prefer to discuss these related issues within the context of this thread.

Yes, I believe that these attributes are a product of spiritual evolution are the product of Revelation through the Baha'i Revelation and ALL previous Revelations such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam and their writings, and through the minds of humans. The process of Revelation can come through the minds of humans also as well as through the Revelation itself in the pure form. This true throughout the evolving spiritual nature of humanity. There are other principles revealed in the Baha'i Revelation such as mandatory universal education for all children, and the Harmony of science and religion where ALL scripture including the Baha'i writings must be understood in the light of science. These principles of the Baha'i Faith have become the universal standards for the world.

The slavery issue is an interesting problem for humanity. No religion until the Baha'i Revelation absolutely prohibited all kinds of slavery and indentured servitude as against God's Law. Before the Baha'i Revelation, the Islamic Revelation did not outlaw slavery, but considered it enlightened to free slaves. Before the Baha'i Revelation there were some movements to free slavery as in the British Commonwealth, but this was inconsistent. It was easily prohibited in the British Isles where slavery did not have an important economic foundation, but in the colonies slavery continued in various forms where there was an economic foundation for slavery, and was only completely outlawed much later. This follows somewhat the Islamic Revelation on the view of slavery.

It still remains that 'theological reflection' in and of itself is not a measure of truth in any religion. This obviously takes place in many different religions, churches and various other beliefs and non-beliefs with highly variable inconsistent results.

As far as whether woman may serve on the Universal House of Justice, this change may come through a decision of the Universal House of Justice in the future, or it may come in a future messianic Revelation.

This represents an enlightened evolution of your belief. Previously you thought that a new revelation would be necessary for such a change in Baha'i practice.

The Revelation of the Baha'i Faith goes further than any other Revelation in history to advance the roll of women in society and religion, and advocates continued change in the future. On the other hand the Revelations off Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do not have spiritual laws that go this far. I do not need to wait for a change, because in the Baha'i writings the rights of women are defined by spiritual law greater than any other revelation in history.

This is not really true except insofar as you are defining things in special terms of Baha'i 'Revelation' and 'spiritual law'. Believers in other religions and unbelievers do not require the justification of a new messianic revelation or new spiritual laws to advocate and make progress along these lines. Various Christian churches already ordain women to the highest leadership roles within their institutions, something the Baha'i faith does not allow, while nonetheless you still want to claim that your Revelation and Spiritual Law are more progressive than any other 'Revelation'. Now that you agree that a new messianic revelation is not necessarily required for Baha'i to make this type of progress, the appeal to the most progressive Revelation and the greatest spiritual laws in history rings even more hollow.

As far as the Roman Church there is no guidance in spiritual laws in scripture to advance the change of religion in society nor for changes in their role in the church for women. Despite efforts to of some to propose change through reform in the church has basically shut the door for any future change.

The Baha'i prohibition against women serving in leadership roles within the Baha'i Universal House of Justice does indeed remind me of Roman opposition to ordination of women to leadership positions.

Your claim elsewhere that the transformation of world toward greater equality and freedom is somehow mysteriously related to Baha'i Revelation, even among those that have never heard of Baha'i revelation, has never been justified. Recall, I have compared this to a kind of 'magical thinking'. I've seen other Baha'i discuss this without giving credit to Baha'i revelation for changes in the world where very few have ever heard of the Baha'i faith. Rather they believe that the progress is taking place of its own accord wherever it takes place and that it has been in cultures that are much less likely for such changes to take place through reasonable and normal sociological means where revelation and an appeal to special revelation might be needed to start to bring about such changes, which is consequently where Baha'i revelation has occurred. That to me sounds much more reasonable. Have you come across this line of thinking among your fellow Baha'i believers?