Originally posted by tabibito
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Persecution as Proof of Salvation
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The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostNo, you haven't been clear on the correlation between Catholicism and the voodoo taint. If Catholicism isn't pertinent to the witchcraft infiltration, then there's no need to mention it.
I take it, however, that you DO believe that Catholicism was relevant to the taint taking place. If that's the case, I need to know why the Catholic mission failed so hard.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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For anybody interested, here's a Wiki article* that discusses, at least in some detail, the problem with Catholicism/Vodou in Haiti.
At one time the area where we stayed outside of Cap Haitian was a luxurious tourist attraction - our hotel (which had become what I would describe as a bad Motel 6 without hot water) even had a beautiful pool with a "swim up" bar. At night, we would sit out in the (relative) cool of the evening (it was about 102 degrees during the day) and feel the breeze, as our rooms had no air conditioning. We could see the fires of the Vodou priests up on the mountainside, and hear the chants and screams and beating of drums.
*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYup - but fact finding missions aren't the stuff of Whag's posts. But there is (or at least, seems to be) a certain degree of legitimate probing of the people he encounters here.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostI submit that if you're on a religious education mission, you should be a scholar on the failure of the previous missions.
Sure enough, at some point in the seminar, one of the participants (thankfully, it wasn't me) asked the instructor "will we be looking at counterfeit currency in this class?" The instructor was obviously waiting for that question, because he smiled real big and said, "No, son - that won't be necessary -- once you know the REAL thing, you'll spot a phony a mile away".
Our "mission" was, as I said, to preach Jesus - Him crucified, buried and risen again, offering Salvation to all who will receive, and to make disciples.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe brands of Christianity promoted by the Byzantine and Roman rites do have particular vulnerabilities that present an avenue for that sort of contamination.
But there is a tendency for communities such as Haiti to "add" the Christian God to their pre-existing pantheons anyway.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostFor anybody interested, here's a Wiki article* that discusses, at least in some detail, the problem with Catholicism/Vodou in Haiti.
At one time the area where we stayed outside of Cap Haitian was a luxurious tourist attraction - our hotel (which had become what I would describe as a bad Motel 6 without hot water) even had a beautiful pool with a "swim up" bar. At night, we would sit out in the (relative) cool of the evening (it was about 102 degrees during the day) and feel the breeze, as our rooms had no air conditioning. We could see the fires of the Vodou priests up on the mountainside, and hear the chants and screams and beating of drums.
*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis reminds me so clearly of my experience with the FBI seminar on counterfeit money. They had asked all the participants to bring a $20 bill, and proceeded to instruct us on every aspect of that bill - the type of paper / cloth, the security marks, "hidden" details, the serial numbering scheme -- all the things one looks for when determining that it's "real money".
Sure enough, at some point in the seminar, one of the participants (thankfully, it wasn't me) asked the instructor "will we be looking at counterfeit currency in this class?" The instructor was obviously waiting for that question, because he smiled real big and said, "No, son - that won't be necessary -- once you know the REAL thing, you'll spot a phony a mile away".
Our "mission" was, as I said, to preach Jesus - Him crucified, buried and risen again, offering Salvation to all who will receive, and to make disciples.
"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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So, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.
In a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.
So, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.
In a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.
So, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow PokeYes, to the antagonist, I suppose it could look like a hand wave. Same with the questions Jesus declined to answer.
There's no comparison in this context, and you should be ashamed of his profound lack of stones.
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Originally posted by Cow PokeSo, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.Originally posted by Cow PokeThere's an old saying, "if you haven't bumped heads with the devil lately, maybe you and he are going in the same direction".
2 Tim 3:[12]*Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.Originally posted by Cow PokeIn a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.Originally posted by Cow PokeSo, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.
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Serving can mean many things. It doesn't mean bold winessing in all situations,
So, there are ZERO lost people in "overwhelmingly Christian regions"? And.. where, exactly, does one find these "overwhelmingly Christian regions"?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostZacharias does, hence his tactic is more suspect as a handwave.
There's no comparison in this context, and you should be ashamed of his profound lack of stones.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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