Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[Cow Poke]

I think there's a lot more going on here sociologically. Rather than a collaborative effort between the Christian factions to remedy the problem, it seems it's just an endless cycle of one faction attempting to undo the failures of the previous mission. A unified mission should be able to easily conquer the disabling and highly inferior superstitions of crude voodoo.

Yeah, we preach Jesus, crucified, buried and risen again. And the New Testament as the basis of our new life. And, apparently, the people of Haiti understood that, which was WHY they would ask "Are you Catholic or Christian" - they didn't consider Catholicism (at least the brand of it they experienced) as "Christian".

[whag]

Nope.* I think that's a symptom of your insincerity.* Although, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if I was wrong in saying you weren't stupid.* Or maybe just so stubborn you refuse to understand.

You've been giving vague answers about the failures of the previous Christian (Catholic) missions. How am I to understand how voodoo infiltrated the Catholic form of Christianity?

No, it's not.

Yes, Catholicism is just as Christian as evangelicalism is. Protestantism is Christianity, too.

Do you mean it's not Christianity in the same way Matt Slick doesn't believe it's Christianity?

https://carm.org/is-catholicism-christian

Catholicism is a religion.* A denomination.

Yes, a Christian religion that preaches the same foundational tenets as your church, hence it's Christianity.

I'm a Baptist.* Why on earth would I want to teach them that Catholicism is the original Christianity?* * I teach the New Testament, not Catholicism.

Because it's the truth and because you're not in competition with them...or are you?

If Catholicism isn't an efficient means of delivering the Christian message, you've yet to explain why.

[tabibito]

Catholicism itself isn't the problem. It was the original Christianity. Is the proper course to fix the taint and emphasize Catholicism is Christianity, or do you replace Catholicism entirely with Protestantism? If so, why?

Oh dear. The Church of Rome is the original protestant church, almost certainly ... but the original Christianity it is not.

[whag]

Oh dear. The Church of Rome is the original protestant church, almost certainly ... but the original Christianity it is not.

The church of Rome wasn't the original protestant church. Is that a typo?

I meant that catholicism is the original church. Before catholicism it was disorganized.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ah, so you admit it's a productive discussion despite your dopey suspicions of insincerity. My sincerity can't be presumed and is wholly irrelevent besides.

Tabby's doing just fine, thanks. You, not so much.

Keep showing why so few people around here take you seriously.

[lilpixieofterror]

That is absolutely false. Wrong. Goofy, even. It's CATHOLICISM (in Haiti) that was tainted with Voodoo. The POINT was that, when the locals asked "Are you Catholic or Christian", it's because they believed that CATHOLICISM was tainted by Voodoo.

So, yes, what you said (even here) is goofy.

Lookie here....

Anybody, with even a passing familiarity with history would know this, but you're expecting Whag to know history vs trying to play 'gotta games' with Christians.

[tabibito]

The church of Rome wasn't the original protestant church. Is that a typo?

It is no typo - that information is contained within the Catholic Encylopaedia itself (though I am having difficulty locating the exact passage).

The basics are these:
There is a community, made up of five seats of authority.
No individual seat has precedence, except by mutual assent as needed - a mutually agreed chairman as it were.
There is a joint council of the seats of authority.
The council makes a decision with which only one group dissents.
That one group declares the findings of the council invalid.
It withdraws from the community.
It declares itself the sole repository of authority to run all of the community.

It is a matter of determining whether the one group is in schism against the four, or the four seats are in schism against the one.
Which group is acting in defiance of the will of the majority?

I meant that catholicism is the original church. Before catholicism it was disorganized.

And therein lies the rub. "You ^{the congregation is}/_are built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ himself being the Chief Corner Stone." Not an arch-bishop, pope, or patriarch rates a mention.
No single person is assigned, according to scripture, to be in charge of the catholic church. Apostles {British English equivalent: high commissioners - American English equivalent - Secretaries (of State, the Interior et.al.)} and prophets underpin a loose commonwealth (as it were) under the sovereign God. The highest denominational rank acknowledged by scripture is that of bishop, and therefore the area of his responsibility might reasonably be assumed to extend to a diocese. No possible acknowledgement of the archdiocese or See is found in scripture.

But - people will insist on having their kings. The Israel of old, a commonwealth of tribes, underpinned by judges and prophets, under the sovereign God did not find the system acceptable. In contrast with the record of the Old Testament showing that God expressed his disapproval of the appointment of a king and in the end acquiesced to the demand, there is no New Testament record that he followed the same course in making the same concessions with regard to the congregations (aka churches).

[Cow Poke]

Anybody, with even a passing familiarity with history would know this, but you're expecting Whag to know history vs trying to play 'gotta games' with Christians.

I have to believe he screwed up earlier, and can't admit he was wrong, so he's doubling down.

[Cow Poke]

You've been giving vague answers about the failures of the previous Christian (Catholic) missions.

No, I'm speaking very specifically about the brand of Catholicism (capital C) introduced to the island of Hispaniola, particularly the country of Haiti. While I am not a scholar on this, and don't pretend to be, it was obvious that the people we ministered to widely believed that, just like Voodoo, this brand of Catholicism was intended to control the people, not set them free.

They recognized enough of a difference between Christianity and the brand of Catholicism on the island to ask the "either / or" question -- "Are you Catholic or Christian". When we explained that we were Christian, they received us gladly.

[whag]

No, I'm speaking very specifically about the brand of Catholicism (capital C) introduced to the island of Hispaniola, particularly the country of Haiti. While I am not a scholar on this, and don't pretend to be, it was obvious that the people we ministered to widely believed that, just like Voodoo, this brand of Catholicism was intended to control the people, not set them free.

They recognized enough of a difference between Christianity and the brand of Catholicism on the island to ask the "either / or" question -- "Are you Catholic or Christian". When we explained that we were Christian, they received us gladly.

I submit that if you're on a religious education mission, you should be a scholar on the failure of the previous missions. Without that knowledge, the pattern of misinterpretation becomes cyclical and requires perpetual follow up.

They're not children to be babysat, and the workers are few.

[Cow Poke]

I submit that if you're on a religious education mission,

you should be a scholar on the failure of the previous missions.

Yeah, you do that.

Without that knowledge, the pattern of misinterpretation becomes cyclical and requires perpetual follow up.

They're not children to be babysat, and the workers are few.

You're being incredibly dense - the locals were WELL AWARE of the error - no education needed.

[whag]

Yeah, you do that.



You're being incredibly dense - the locals were WELL AWARE of the error - no education needed.

No, you haven't been clear on the correlation between Catholicism and the voodoo taint. If Catholicism isn't pertinent to the witchcraft infiltration, then there's no need to mention it.

I take it, however, that you DO believe that Catholicism was relevant to the taint taking place. If that's the case, I need to know why the Catholic mission failed so hard.

[Cow Poke]

No, you haven't been clear on the correlation between Catholicism and the voodoo taint.

Wow

Not only did I provide the quote, I provided quotes of the quote.

If Catholicism isn't pertinent to the witchcraft infiltration, then there's no need to mention it.

Let me type this really slowly, Whag... the LOCALS brought it up, as a caution that THEY don't want Catholicism/Voodo nonsense.

I take it, however, that you DO believe that Catholicism was relevant to the taint taking place. If that's the case, I need to know why the Catholic mission failed so hard.

[tabibito]

the locals were WELL AWARE of the error - no education needed.

To identify that error exists, certainly ... to work out how to fix it though might take a certain amount of education.

I submit that if you're on a religious education mission, you should be a scholar on the failure of the previous missions. Without that knowledge, the pattern of misinterpretation becomes cyclical and requires perpetual follow up.

They're not children to be babysat, and the workers are few.

If a people are in the state that Cow Poke describes, they do need to be babysat. In Biblical concept, they need milk - and of course that "milk" is the proper grounding in sound doctrine that would allow them to be able to consume meat (and fruit and veg). Naturally enough, their education needs to include matters that are not doctrine, together with a due regard for proper physical nutrition: it is an overall package.
Missions in China way back in the when attempted to restrict the provision for physical needs to those who became members of the Church. The resultant disaster was a foregone conclusion, and the emperor of the time decided that China would be better off without Christianity. At least to some (rather limited) extent, the churches have demonstrated the ability to learn from their own history.

[Cow Poke]

To identify that error exists, certainly ... to work out how to fix it though might take a certain amount of education.

Well, having been there numerous times (albeit not in the last 20 or so years) I can attest that it was well known that evangelical Christians did not tolerate any form of Vodou, and taught the Bible as the Truth. It was not necessary to teach "Vodou is bad" or that the Catholic religion had become mixed with Vodou, and vice versa.