Christian Necrophobes

[Sparko]

Yep. sure sounds like you are trying to convince yourself there is no God, Tassman. Good luck with that.

[whag]

Sure everyone wants to live. But to a Christian, death is more like immigrating to a better country where you won't see your friends and loved ones for a while, till they come over and join you. You are reluctant to go, but you know that a better life awaits you.

The inverse truth of your loved ones being damned would grieve you as much your being reunited with them would make you happy. Most people will be damned, according to Christianity, including Mormons, Muslims, liberal Christians, skeptics, etc.

If all your friends and loved ones are conservative Christians, you're a rare bird, indeed. Christianity actually teaches that the way is narrow.

And the reason we use doctors and I am seeking treatment is that to Christians, life, especially human life (including our own) is precious and not to be squandered or tossed away.

Not obtaining treatment wouldn't be squandering your life or tossing it away. It'd simply be letting the infirmity that God brought take its natural course. What makes you seek treatment is the very same survival drive that would make me seek treatment.

This is why you should never try to lamely stoke existential fear in non-Christians (Mormons, Muslims, etc) while expressing the survival drive yourself.

As far as death having existed for billions of years, I am speaking of human death.

Still not following you. Like all animals, human hominid ancestors also died. That's why we find their bones. There was no time in which human beings haven't died.

You should change your view that human beings caused death for that critical reason. Why BS yourself just because blatant epistemological error just so happens to "fall within the scope of Christianity"? Rick Warren falls within the scope of Christianity, too. Lots of stupid stuff does.

And views on how long death itself has been around various among Christians. There are theistic evolutionists, young earth creationists, old earth creationists, etc. All of those views fall within the scope of Christianity.

If any of those views assume human beings are responsible for human death, they are incorrect. That requires an unsustainable faith that defies what's evident in the natural history record.

[Cow Poke]

Not obtaining treatment wouldn't be squandering your life or tossing it away. It'd simply be letting the infirmity that God brought take its natural course. What makes you seek treatment is the very same survival drive that would make me seek treatment.

This part intrigues me. If we are simply to "let the infirmity God brought take its natural course", then why did Jesus give sight to the man born blind, heal the man with the palsy, the woman with the issue of blood, Peter and John heal the man with the crippled feet.....

We believe human life is precious. Even the unborn. I'm at MD Anderson in Houston right now with my wife for a followup for her breast cancer. Do you believe we should have "simply accepted" the fact that she would die without intervention?

Also, from the lobby where I'm posting, I can see numerous hospitals around me founded by religious institutions. Why? Because they think human life is precious.

[shunyadragon]

I notice all the atheists who claim they are not afraid of death are healthy and alive.

Talk to us again when you are on your deathbed or facing a terminal disease.

I have known many atheists, agnostics and humanist non-believers who have shown no fear on the death bed, and one notable example of my brother James, who attended the Roman Church all his adult life, but when found this year to be terminally ill rejected religion and God, and rejected any religious ceremony in observance of his passing. He requested a non-religious wake, and cremation of his remains. My brother passed away peacefully knowing the end was at hand in July of this year, and expressing no regrets concerning his decisions.

What you describe is a common fear of death and death bed John Wayne conversion, but not everyone has this same experience.

[Darth Executor]

lol, leave it to liberals to pathologize sanity and sanitize dysfunction. If you're afraid to die then beliefs that allow you to continue functioning normally are both entirely normal and an useful evolutionary trait. Between your and Jichard's posts I'm not the least bit surprised anymore that atheism is heavily dysgenic.

http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews....p-its-a-thing/

Nothing to do with the subject, you don't need to be a Christian to believe in an afterlife.

I actually haven't made that (or any other) argument, so how, exactly, I managed to commit a logical fallacy will remain a mystery for the ages.

[Darth Executor]

Still not following you. Like all animals, human hominid ancestors also died. That's why we find their bones. There was no time in which human beings haven't died.

Well seeing how Adam and Eve died and they were the first humans this is true by all standards.

[whag]

Well seeing how Adam and Eve died and they were the first humans this is true by all standards.

The first human beings evolved from a continuous line of mammals who all died.

Yes, you do have a bit of difficulty claiming that human beings introduced death if there was no period in which death wasn't a thing for mammals and all species of flora and fauna.

I'm interested in your view. Please explain what you believe so I don't have to guess and presume.

[Darth Executor]

The first human beings evolved from a continuous line of mammals who all died.

Yes, you do have a bit of difficulty claiming that human beings introduced death if there was no period in which death wasn't a thing for mammals and all species of flora and fauna.

I'm interested in your view. Please explain what you believe so I don't have to guess and presume.

I don't think human beings introduced death for everything, just humans. I think Adam and Eve were the first humans, but there may have been biological humans who were not given the breath of God before them and conflating the two is a subsequent anachronism.

[Sparko]

I have known many atheists, agnostics and humanist non-believers who have shown no fear on the death bed, and one notable example of my brother James, who attended the Roman Church all his adult life, but when found this year to be terminally ill rejected religion and God, and rejected any religious ceremony in observance of his passing. He requested a non-religious wake, and cremation of his remains. My brother passed away peacefully knowing the end was at hand in July of this year, and expressing no regrets concerning his decisions.

What you describe is a common fear of death and death bed John Wayne conversion, but not everyone has this same experience.

I never claimed everyone has the same experience. And to me it sounds like your brother might have stopped believing out of anger that God would let him become terminally ill.

Both of my parents died of lung cancer and both were Christian. My mom died at home with us surrounding her and hospice taking care of her and reading the bible to her. She went peacefully and never once blamed God. My dad was in the hospital when he died and he took every opportunity to praise God and tell those around him that whatever comes he was ready. Even the doctors were impressed with his attitude.

[whag]

I don't think human beings introduced death for everything, just humans. I think Adam and Eve were the first humans, but there may have been biological humans who were not given the breath of God before them and conflating the two is a subsequent anachronism.

That's a stretch of the word anachronism.

The problem for you is that we've discovered a significant blur between Cromags/Neanderthals and the first human beings, animists who deified nature (for obvious reasons) and made fertility statues like the Venus of Willendorf. To suggest a hard delineation between hominids like Cromags and Neanderthals and those given the "breath of God" (what does that mean? A soul?) is absurd. That disparages the struggles of those species and requires a faith literally informed by nothing but wishful thinking.

[Darth Executor]

That's a stretch of the word anachronism.

The problem for you is that we've discovered a significant blur between Cromags/Neanderthals and the first human beings, animists who deified nature (for obvious reasons) and made fertility statues like the Venus of Willendorf. To suggest a hard delineation between hominids like Cromags and Neanderthals and those given the "breath of God" (what does that mean? A soul?) is absurd. That disparages the struggles of those species and requires a faith literally informed by nothing but wishful thinking.

That is not a problem for me, mostly because you don't understand what I'm saying. I was not talking about Cromags/Neandethals, I was talking about Homo Sapiens. I am leaning towards Homo Sapiens, as a biological organism, having evolved organically from more primitive hominids, and Adam and Eve being specially created (either directly from dirt or by modifying existing Sapiens stock). There is little (and possibly no) biological difference between the two but there is a huge spiritual difference (namely, that the latter have souls while the former did not, a divison that I suspect exists to this day). In other words, I am proposing that there are two types of Sapiens, biologically indistinguishable (at least for now), one without souls and descended from the animal kingdom and one with souls, descended from specially created Adam and Eve. This is also what I mean by anachronism, because the same humanity is retroactively applied to all Sapiens.

[tabibito]

I don't think human beings introduced death for everything, just humans. I think Adam and Eve were the first humans, but there may have been biological humans who were not given the breath of God before them and conflating the two is a subsequent anachronism.

Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through

There is at least some justification for the claim.

[tabibito]

That's a stretch of the word anachronism.

The problem for you is that we've discovered a significant blur between Cromags/Neanderthals and the first human beings, animists who deified nature (for obvious reasons) and made fertility statues like the Venus of Willendorf. To suggest a hard delineation between hominids like Cromags and Neanderthals and those given the "breath of God" (what does that mean? A soul?) is absurd. That disparages the struggles of those species and requires a faith literally informed by nothing but wishful thinking.

The chronology as laid down by the Bible is demonstrably wrong, and it only takes the unwarranted inclusion of a couple of begats to make is so ... I lean to the view that Adam and Eve (assuming they were not mythological) were H.s.sapiens - but ... nothing in the scriptural record definitively says as much. With the Bible's primary focus being the interaction between man and God, very little is said about other species, but the (one?) small piece available suggests that at least some animals have souls.

[shunyadragon]

I never claimed everyone has the same experience. And to me it sounds like your brother might have stopped believing out of anger that God would let him become terminally ill.

Your suspicions are unfounded, and likely directed to justify your position. I knew my brother closely, he never expressed any anger in his 10 year+ cancer journey. In fact in all discussions with him he was at peace with his impending death. Between us well into our sixties we acknowledged death was the end of every ones journey regardless, and we both had lived a long and fruitful life. He commented that some just knew with more certainty when the end would come.

I am a Baha'i, but have remained close to the humanist UUs all my adult life. I have many friends around my age in their 60s and older, and none hat I know of have any misgivings about their humanist belief and death. A few at present are suffering from terminal ailments. I regularly visit them.

[Sparko]

Your suspicions are unfounded, and likely directed to justify your position. I knew my brother closely, he never expressed any anger in his 10 year+ cancer journey. In fact in all discussions with him he was at peace with his impending death. Between us well into our sixties we acknowledged death was the end of every ones journey regardless, and we both had lived a long and fruitful life. He commented that some just knew with more certainty when the end would come.

10 years +?? But you said:
"but when found this year to be terminally ill rejected religion and God"

make up your mind, shunya.