Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

[Marta]

Jesus death was reported at 3:00 pm - that may not be accurate. (correction) Jesus' Side is Pierced
31Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day ), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

If Jesus's body had to be taken down before sunset - The Jewish 24-hour day begins at nightfall. Tzeit Hakochavim: The time when three average stars are visible in the sky and nightfall is complete.

[rstrats]

Marta,
re: "There is no night missing night..."

The Messiah said that He would spend 3 nights in the "heart of the earth". Now assuming the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and assuming a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection, how do you get 3 night times during that period?



re: "...how do you account for Matthew 26:34 is rendered as, ' I tell you faithfully that this very night before the rooster calls out, you will completely deny me three times.'......."

How do I account for what about Matthew 26:34?




re: "Against this background, the debate between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai regarding the scope of the first Hallel takes on new significance."

I have absolutely no idea of the significance of the debate with regard to reconciling the missing night time of a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection.

[Marta]

=rstrats;300319]Marta,
re: "There is no night missing night..."

The Messiah said that He would spend 3 nights in the "heart of the earth". Now assuming the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and assuming a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection, how do you get 3 night times during that period?



re: "...how do you account for Matthew 26:34 is rendered as, ' I tell you faithfully that this very night before the rooster calls out, you will completely deny me three times.'......."

How do I account for what about Matthew 26:34?

[Marta]

Marta,
re: "Against this background, the debate between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai regarding the scope of the first Hallel takes on new significance."

I have absolutely no idea of the significance of the debate with regard to reconciling the missing night time of a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection.

On the day of the Passover sacrifice, the 14th of Nisan, the hallel is sung more than on any other day of the year... for as the Mishna taught us, the members of each band who offer the Passover sacrifice read the hallel several times, while the Levites, too, accompany them from atop the platform, adding the sounds of their harps, lyres and cymbals to the joyous harmony.
The Levites stand atop the platform and sing the entire hallel. Those Israelites present in the court are also commanded to accompany their sacrificial service with song; these join in with the Levites' song. Thus the sound of the festive hallel was practically constant in the courtyards of the Holy Temple, and around Jerusalem, throughout the entire 14th of Nisan. To the Jewish people, this day became the symbol of the ideal joy; in the words of the prophet, "the night of the holy festival."


The argument was that the redemption was not yet completed - they had marked the hour. Use it as a marker!


Beit Hillel said to them: Even if you wait until the cock's crowing, they would still not have reached half of the redemption. How then do we mention the redemption, when they were not yet redeemed? Surely they only left in the middle of the day, as it is stated: "And it came to pass on that selfsame day, etc." Rather, since he started the mitzva, we say to him, "Finish."

[Marta]

I have absolutely no idea of the significance of the debate with regard to reconciling the missing night time of a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection.

[Marta]

Marta,
re: " Sometimes I think it does - ???"


What is "it" and what do you sometimes think that it does?


BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #82?

Now do you understand "why" I said "sometimes I think it is the 6th??"

[Marta]

Marta,

re: "Against this background, the debate between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai regarding the scope of the first Hallel takes on new significance."

I have absolutely no idea of the significance of the debate with regard to reconciling the missing night time of a 6th day of the week entombment/1st day of the week resurrection.

Reason for bringing up the quotes from Beit Shammai said to them: Did Israel [already] leave Egypt that he should mention the exodus from Egypt?


Thursday, April 09, 2009
What Did Jesus Sing at the Last Supper?

Well, Holy Thursday is upon us and the Paschal Mystery right around the corner.
In honor of the feast, I thought I'd post a little something on Jesus and the Last Supper.
It is widely recognized that the Last Supper was a Passover meal and that the Jewish Passover liturgy included special hymns drawn from the book of Psalms. These hymns were known as the Hallel Psalms (meaning "Praise" psalms), and consisted of Psalms 113-118. We find a fleeting reference to them in Gospel accounts of the Last Supper. After identifying the bread as his "body" and the wine as his "blood," the Gospel reads:
"And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives." (Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26).
Now, this is interesting to highlight, for at least three reasons.

When we actually look at the Hallel Psalms themselves, we find something very striking. We find a window into words which were not said at the Last Supper, but sung. Since we don't have the space to quote them all, I will give you just one. As a good Jew, at the Last Supper, Jesus would have sung the following words:

The snares of death encompassed me, the pangs of Sheol laid hold on me; I suffered distress and anguish. Then I called on the name of the LORD; "O LORD, I beg you, save my life!"... For you have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling; I walk before the LORD in the land of the living...
What shall I render to the LORD for all his bounty to me? I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the LORD... O LORD, I am your servant; I am your servant, the son of your handmaid. You have loosed my bonds. I will offer you the sacrifice of thanksgiving... (Psalm 116:3-4, 8-9, 12-13, 16-17)

[rstrats]

Marta,

I guess we're done here. I just don't understand what any of your comments have to do with the OP. Perhaps someone new looking in will be able to decode your cryptic writing.

[Marta]

Marta,

I guess we're done here. I just don't understand what any of your comments have to do with the OP. Perhaps someone new looking in will be able to decode your cryptic writing.

Yes, I think you and I are about done. See your OP on another website or maybe perhaps, the answer you were looking for - under 'The Son of Man Will Be Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth' see under references.

The Idea in Brief

Jesus compared his death to Jonah, who was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights (Matt 12:40). Jonah had related his ordeal not only in terms of having been swallowed by the great fish but also as having been "at the roots of the mountains" (Jonah 2:6); that is, Jonah stated that "the earth with its bars was around" him in the confines of Sheol (Jonah 2:6), because he was physically dead in the belly of the great fish. That is, Jonah was not in the ground (the grave), but his body was under water and his soul was in the heart of the earth (and thus in Sheol).

Peter indicates that Jesus too was in Hades (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31), which is Sheol in the LXX, and Paul indicates that Jesus was "in the lower parts of the earth" (Eph 4:9). In other words, like Jonah, Jesus was in the belly of the earth (Sheol) for three days and three nights.

The comparison to Jonah avoids ambiguity with the ground, because the body of Jonah was not buried in the ground when he entered Sheol, which in the Hebrew Bible is often equated with "the pit" in the ground where the human corpse is laid; thus the account of Jonah enables us to understand that Sheol includes some location "in the heart of the earth" as Jesus said (or to use Jonah's words, "at the roots of the mountains"). Thus Jesus entered the same place as Jonah (Sheol/Hades) for three days and three nights.

Finally, Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples in the early hours of the Day of Preparation, which was late evening (because this Hebrew day had begun at sunset). During the midnight hours He was betrayed and arrested. That is, within 12 hours (on the same Day of Preparation) he was hanging on the cross, where He died before sunset that began the actual Passover. (as I had mentioned)


The Thursday here was the Day of Preparation, and therefore the Passover (which starts the First Day of the FEAST of Unleavened Bread and is considered an automatic Sabbath day) had began at sunset on Thursday and continued until Friday evening, when the "normal" Sabbath had begun. Thus the Passover (First Day of the FEAST of Unleavened Bread) combined with the "normal" Sabbath created a 48-hour Sabbath, since the Passover on this particular year had occurred on the very day just before the "normal" Sabbath.

In other words, the body of Jesus lay in the grave for three days and three nights while at the same time his soul remained in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights. According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset).



************
If Jesus's body had to be taken down before sunset - The Jewish 24-hour day begins at nightfall. Tzeit Hakochavim: The time when three average stars are visible in the sky and nightfall is complete. One also needs to know the time of sunset where one is located in order to determine the times of the beginning of Shabbat and holidays and the definition of "nightfall" in order to determine the time of havdalah.

**************

If you don't want understand the posts that I written maybe perhaps you'll read someone who had posted the same thing I did on another website - understanding "not only" the language of the passage and when certain scriptural points are made, e.g. Matthew 26:34, This night or on this night - either way, the meaning mean as in "night" - zemanit (Time between Sunset-Sunrise). Twilight (bein hashemashot) is a halachic (Torah legal) term for a time period that marks the transition from day to night and from one calendar day to the next.

According to Torah law, the calendar day runs from nightfall to nightfall; thus, Shabbat begins Friday evening at nightfall and ends at nightfall on Saturday night. Nightfall is when the light of day has faded to the point that three middle-sized stars are visible in the sky.

Between sunset and nightfall is the period defined as twilight, a time period with laws and rules of its own. The previous day has ended (or perhaps ended), yet the following day has not yet (or perhaps not yet) commenced.

These are points to consider "When" you say that there is a missing night - or day! There is "no" missing day - and I had answered your post several times and even gave you information on it. There are several posts on the website to "help" you to understand that it wasn't on Wednesday but on Thursday go into Friday that all of this occurred - what time did they take Jesus off the cross before Shabbat begin has to be determined by the first sighting - and we don't know that. However, there have been many assumptions!


References:

Zmanim Briefly Defined and Explained

Twilight

Between sunset and nightfall is the period defined as twilight, a time period with laws and rules of its own. The previous day has ended (or perhaps ended), yet the following day has not yet (or perhaps not yet) commenced.

D'var Torah: Vayigash
:


Coming from your view point: Wednesday this is incorrect according to "hours (figuring on hours) and the days involved" -

The Surprising Sayings of Jesus Christ
'The Son of Man Will Be Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth'

"According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset)." ........Check "New day" regarding sunset, and to quote: Therefore, the time following shkiah and before tzeit hakochavim is called bein hashmashot. Many laws relate to this period, and it can be categorized as either the previous or the next day.

and citing Passage Luke 13:32

[rstrats]

Marta,
re: "These are points to consider 'When' you say that there is a missing night - or day! There is 'no' missing day..."

But there is a missing night with a 6th day of the week death/1st day of the week resurrection. And I said nothing about a missing daytime.



re: " There are several posts on the website to 'help' you to understand that it wasn't on Wednesday..."
re: "Coming from your view point: Wednesday..."

Where have I said that I thought it was on Wednesday?



The gist of the OP question: Can you provide actual examples from the first century or before to show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?

[Marta]

[QUOTE=rstrats;300622]Marta,

re: "These are points to consider 'When' you say that there is a missing night - or day! There is 'no' missing day..."

But there is a missing night with a 6th day of the week death/1st day of the week resurrection. And I said nothing about a missing daytime.

Rstrats: Missing night. You wrote that you think that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week, the 13th of Nissan? Instead of the 14th of Nissan - right? What day would that have been back then? and also, during that time did the Eve of Passover fall on Shabbat?

re: " There are several posts on the website to 'help' you to understand that it wasn't on Wednesday..."
re: "Coming from your view point: Wednesday..."

Where have I said that I thought it was on Wednesday?

Sorry! When you wrote the 5th day of the week - I took it as you meant Wednesday. My apologies for the mistake.

"The Eve of Passover occurring on Shabbat is a relatively rare occurrence, falling on Shabbat less often than any other day of the week it possibly can. Other days of the week on which the Eve of Passover can occur include Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.Eve of Passover on Shabbat




Passover Offering

When the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, the Passover offering was brought there on the afternoon of Nissan 14. What day would this have been?

[rstrats]

Marta,
re: "You wrote that you think that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week, the 13th of Nissan? Instead of the 14th of Nissan - right?"

I said that "I think scripture most likely indicates that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week." I said nothing about the 13th or 14th of Nissan.



re: "What day would that have been back then?"

It is generally believed that the Messiah was crucified on the 14th of Nissan. So if He was crucified on the 5th day of the week, then the 13th of Nissan would have been the 4th day of the week.



re: "When the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, the Passover offering was brought there on the afternoon of Nissan 14. What day would this have been?"

It would depend on the year. But if you're referring to the year of the crucifixion, and if the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week, then the offering would have been brought on the 5th day of the week.


But again, none of this has anything to do with the OP with its clarifying posts' question.

[Marta]

rstrats

re: "You wrote that you think that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week, the 13th of Nissan? Instead of the 14th of Nissan - right?"

I said that "I think scripture most likely indicates that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week." I said nothing about the 13th or 14th of Nissan.

re: "What day would that have been back then?"

It is generally believed that the Messiah was crucified on the 14th of Nissan. So if He was crucified on the 5th day of the week, then the 13th of Nissan would have been the 4th day of the week

re: "When the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, the Passover offering was brought there on the afternoon of Nissan 14. What day would this have been?"

It would depend on the year. But if you're referring to the year of the crucifixion, and if the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week, then the offering would have been brought on the 5th day of the week.

5th day? Thursday - why? and during the afternoon. Again, 5th day, you not be really specific here.
If the Shabbat is from sunset down to sunrise - Friday to Saturday?

But again, none of this has anything to do with the OP with its clarifying posts' question.

What does it mean that a Christian is a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)?

[rstrats]

[Marta]

rstrats




5th day of a 7 day week according to the Julian calendar or Jewish calendar?

re: "... so was the 5th day on the 13th or 14th of Nissan?"

If the the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week, then it would have been on the 14th day of the month if the Messiah's death was the antitype of the killing of the animals of Passover.

"IF" and, according to John 13, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And it was the preparation of the Passover,.... So the Jews say, that Jesus suffered on the eve of the Passover; it was the eve both of the Passover and the Sabbath; which account so far agrees with the evangelic history; Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible


"The Eve of Passover occurring on Shabbat is a relatively rare occurrence, falling on Shabbat less often than any other day of the week it possibly can. Other days of the week on which the Eve of Passover can occur include Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.Eve of Passover on Shabbat
and addressing the statement: "assuming that the 14th day of Nissan to be the 1 day of Passover, then 17th of Nissan would be the 4th day"

so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

re: "5th day? Thursday - why?"

I've said nothing about Thursday.

Your not being real specific on which day it was - I'm just asking the question on which day that you meant? If you didn't say Wednesday and you didn't say Thursday - what day did you mean? That's all?

I gave you one: Transfiguration and Resurrection

the story he tells us that Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah about his approaching death in Jerusalem (Luke 9:31). This is an important piece of information, for it shows us the proper context in which to view this scene. The sequence of events in the narrative here in Matthew also shows us very plainly that the transfiguration was meant to be interpreted in light of the death and resurrection of Jesus. References to Jesus' death literally surround the transfiguration story (Matt.16:21; 17:12, 22f), and Jesus told his disciples not to discuss what they had seen until after his resurrection (Matt. 17:9). Clearly, he wanted them to view the transfiguration in that specific context.

In that passage Jesus spoke with both Moses and Elijah - the earlier great prophets of the Jewish people, and the ones that are shared at Passover -fifth cup of wine - the "Cup of Elijah" - that is filled during the final stage of the Seder. but also, the apostles that were chosen, had been present to witness the event. Jesus, like Moses - Exodus 18:12Zechariah 14:7 and, Revelation 22:5)

Now, rstats, if you don't want to note this passage in the next post - then I will consider this conversation over.