Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

[Faber]

Randy, instead of coming back to your various websites every few months asking if there is anybody new who can answer your question, why don't you just look for the answers yourself. Maybe then you'll find out that there is no answer.

[rstrats]

Faber,

How can Randy (whoever that is) find out what specific examples someone is using to support their assertion that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language without asking them what those examples are?

[Faber]

Who is calling it an idiomatic statement? Ask them.

[DesertBerean]

[rstrats]

Faber,
re: " Who is calling it an idiomatic statement?"

When I first asked the question on these various forums over 10 years ago, I had in mind discussions that I had had in the past. I'm afraid I can't remember the names of the people that were involved. Are you suggesting that no 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate ever uses the idea of a common idiom to explain the missing night of Matthew 12:40?

[rstrats]

The thread title should be ammended to read: "Matthew 12:40 a common idiom?"

[Abigail]

Have you ever considered whether there might be good reason to start the clock running slightly earlier. In Matthew 26:63-69 when the high priest puts Jesus under oath to tell them if He was the Messiah, Jesus replies (v.64) 'From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven'. The high priest then rips his clothes and saying that Jesus has blasphemed passes a death sentence' So technically Jesus is dead from then on since they are purposed to carry out the sentence. Perhaps the clock should start running from when Jesus says "From now" in verse 64

[rstrats]

Abigail,
re: "The high priest then rips his clothes and saying that Jesus has blasphemed passes a death sentence' So technically Jesus is dead from then on since they are purposed to carry out the sentence."

Using that logic you'd have to say that the clock started running no later than the moment of His birth because it had been planned (purposed) that He was eventually to be put to death.

[Abigail]

Abigail,
re: "The high priest then rips his clothes and saying that Jesus has blasphemed passes a death sentence' So technically Jesus is dead from then on since they are purposed to carry out the sentence."

Using that logic you'd have to say that the clock started running no later than the moment of His birth because it had been planned (purposed) that He was eventually to be put to death.

[rstrats]

Abigail,
re: "No, since there is, IMO, another qualifier going on here in that the sign of Jonah and the three days were directly linked to His being revealed as the Messiah and Son of God."

Why do you want to have the opinion that the 3 daytime/3 night time clock started before the Messiah was placed in the tomb? Why do you think that you have to invent a scenario where "the heart of the earth" means something other than the tomb?

[Abigail]

Abigail,
re: "No, since there is, IMO, another qualifier going on here in that the sign of Jonah and the three days were directly linked to His being revealed as the Messiah and Son of God."

Why do you want to have the opinion that the 3 daytime/3 night time clock started before the Messiah was placed in the tomb? Why do you think that you have to invent a scenario where "the heart of the earth" means something other than the tomb?

[rstrats]

Abigail,
re: " Why do you think 'heart of the earth' should be limited to 'tomb' ...?"

Answer my question first.

[Abigail]

Abigail,
re: " Why do you think 'heart of the earth' should be limited to 'tomb' ...?"

Answer my question first.

**Assuming Friday crucifixion and Sunday morning rising.

I am not 'inventing' any senario's. I am just trying to engage in discussion with you about this verse because I have been wondering what you are angling at with this thread. Do you have a problem with the three days and three nights?

So, is the 'heart of the earth' to be understood as 'tomb'? Firstly, looking at the event Jesus refers to and how Jonah prays when in the belly of the fish we see a lot of imagery used which is deeper than the physical reality of being in the fish, but which never loses sight of the physical reality Jonah found himself in:

In Jonah 2 we are told that Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:1 NRSV) and that he cried for help from the belly of Sheol (Jonah 2:2 NRVS). Further on in the passage we are told that he 'went down to the land (earth) whose bars closed upon him forever (Jonah 2:6 NRSV). So right here we see that the total realization Jonah has of his situation is fuller than just the fact he is in the belly of a fish.

So IMO 'heart of the earth' in Matthew 12:40 will be many things including 'tomb', and going on the Jonah passage, all those things will be applicable in some way at some time during the period of three days and three nights.

If the three days and three nights was necessarily the time Jesus was to be in the tomb (as a place for dead bodies) then we cant be dogmatic from passages like Matt 20:17-19 where 'nights or 'tomb' aren't mentioned. As noted in my previous post, Jesus in Matthew 20:17-19 talks about being condemned, handed over to Gentiles who will mock, scourge and crucify Him and that He will be raised on the third day. This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:4 where Paul mentions that Jesus was buried and raised on the third day. So since we know from both Jesus Himself and Paul that Jesus was crucified, buried and raised on the third day then we know, at the very least, three days and two nights are to be understood as when Jesus was in the tomb. However, what of the first night**. Does what Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 refer to the strict definition of 'tomb' and therefore the first night has to be understood as clocking the time Jesus was in the actual tomb or could He have been using a larger definition which allows counting from when He came under condemnation by the leaders and scribes as a lawbreaker and deserving of death, giving one night of condemnation-to-death and two nights and three days of death.

Can you tell my why we have to use the tighter definition ie 'heart of earth' = 'tomb'

Personally, I like the interpretation that the crucifixion took place on a Thursday daytime, that 'heart of the earth' does refer to the tomb and the days and nights are counted Day 1, Night 1, Day 2, Night 2, Day 3, Night 3 ie that Jesus rose sometime between sunset Saturday and sunrise Sunday.

[37818]

The morning, that day of the resurrection is counted as the third day being the third since Christ's crucification (Luke 24:21). The 15th of Nisan was high holy day, and as Jews had to wait till the evening of that preparation day (Mark 15:42-43) to obtian the body of Jesus for burial. From the time of being placed in the tomb, was a night, a day, that preparation day, a night, the Sabbath, its day, a night and the morning of the 1st day of the week.

[rstrats]

Abigail,
re: "I have been wondering what you are angling at with this thread."

I say "what" in the OP and clarified in posts #47 and #60. I'm trying to 'catch' examples that support the assertion of those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language.



re: "Do you have a problem with the three days and three nights?"

No. The problem I have is with those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language without providing any actual examples to support the claim that it was common to say that a daytime and/or a night time was to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place.



re: "Can you tell my why we have to use the tighter definition ie 'heart of earth' = 'tomb'"

I don't know that we "have to", but I see no compelling reason for not assuming that the Messiah is referring to the tomb. I think the majority of people think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb and it is to them that this topic is directed.