Animals Doing What Animals Do...

[seer]

Because they kept the Law faithfully?

Because God sees the sincere intent of their heart?

Because they were honestly ignorant?

Because someone deliberately misled them?

Because they called on Jesus in extremis?


There are a whole lot of possible reasons why God may have pardoned particular people who do not know Jesus. We can't really know exactly what every one of their particular circumstances were, including their innermost thoughts and beliefs.

Which is part of my point: an actual nuanced view, unlike yours, is sensitive to the limits of our knowledge, and doesn't - unlike you - lump a group of people into one category.

Yes, but they will not be saved apart from the work Christ. I too believe in possible second chances after death.

[seer]

Yes, I believe that.

Based on what? And in your universe what happens when one does not follow this "objective standard?" Why should we, if not following it is to our benefit?

[seer]

I should add here that there theologians who accept an eternal Hell also often teach that it has gradations of punishment. Even if the Jews did go to an eternal Hell for not excepting Christ, they are most certainly not "burning with the Nazis." They'd probably be in a relatively mild place.

Well my position is annihilationism. But I could be wrong.

[seer]

No, that's Nestorianism. Christ was of two natures in one being- man and God at once. The godman, the Lord of Glory, truly died on the Cross. But it was not possible for death to hold Him because of His divinity.

You need another tack to show that Penal Substituionary Atonement was not human sacrifice. (Personally, I think it is human sacrifice which is why I reject it for the Recapitulation and Christus Victor views of Atonement, but anyway).

Perhaps. But human sacrifice that was condemned in scripture was basically you sacrificing another person (mostly unwilling children) to a god. Christ willingly went to the cross on our behalf - more like a good friend taking a bullet that was meant for you.

[whag]

Because they kept the Law faithfully?

Because God sees the sincere intent of their heart?

Because they were honestly ignorant?

Because someone deliberately misled them?

Because they called on Jesus in extremis?


There are a whole lot of possible reasons why God may have pardoned particular people who do not know Jesus. We can't really know exactly what every one of their particular circumstances were, including their innermost thoughts and beliefs.

Which is part of my point: an actual nuanced view, unlike yours, is sensitive to the limits of our knowledge, and doesn't - unlike you - lump a group of people into one category.

Actually, my view was nuanced from the beginning. I also believe that the above criteria (except for the last one, which is iffy) are just as important, if not more so, than specific belief. It completely eliminates the controversial view that everyone who doesn't know Jesus is doomed and gives great comfort to people like seer who look forward to a reunion of family and friends in heaven.

[Enjolras]

... The bottom line is that God will remain what He always is - perfectly just. Our sense of justice could no more rise above His than a river could rise above it's source. And it seems to me that if you are worried about those outside of Christ the worse thing you could do is remain outside of Christ yourself.

This is the subject of another thread, but I find the god of the bible to be no more 'just' than other ancient despots. This is, after all, the same being who drowns humanity in a flood and orders genocide against a people, including their children and infants. It is not difficult to rise above such justice.

[seer]

This is the subject of another thread, but I find the god of the bible to be no more 'just' than other ancient despots. This is, after all, the same being who drowns humanity in a flood and orders genocide against a people, including their children and infants. It is not difficult to rise above such justice.

Except you do not all the facts, so there is really no way you can make an informed decision on the matter. Also keep in mind that in Christian theology those people are not presently dead. Their story is not yet finished. They were just removed from this present world.

[Enjolras]

Except you do not all the facts, so there is really no way you can make an informed decision on the matter. Also keep in mind that in Christian theology those people are not presently dead. Their story is not yet finished. They were just removed from this present world.

You don't know all the facts about Stalin or Mao either. Did that prevent you from calling their actions unjust?

[seer]

You don't know all the facts about Stalin or Mao either. Did that prevent you from calling their actions unjust?

Enjolras, we do know the facts in those cases. The point is, God knows the future, both factually and counter-factually. He knows what will or could happen if He allowed certain populations or individuals to live or gain power. Which brings us back to my OP - from where does your sense of justice spring, that sense of justice that you would use to judge God? The accidental by product of an amoral evolutionary process that cares nothing for justice? Why should we find that a compelling standard? And remember a Stalin or Mao can not bring the dead back to life. God can.

[Enjolras]

Enjolras, we do know the facts in those cases. The point is, God knows the future, both factually and counter-factually. He knows what will or could happen if He allowed certain populations or individuals to live or gain power.

If a human commits an evil act, you are perfectly capable of saying so. If a god in any religion other than your own is said to commit evil, you have no problem declaring it to be so. But if the exact same act is said of YHWH, and written in the Bible, now all of a sudden you don't know all the facts and cannot render judgement. Hmmm...

Which brings us back to my OP - from where does your sense of justice spring, that sense of justice that you would use to judge God? The accidental by product of an amoral evolutionary process that cares nothing for justice? Why should we find that a compelling standard? And remember a Stalin or Mao can not bring the dead back to life. God can.

I use the same judgement that I use to say what Stalin and Mao did was wrong. They harmed people. I don't pretend I'm incapable of calling something evil just because someone wrote it down in a book thousands of years ago.

You say God is just. You say God is merciful. You say God is loving. How do you know that to be the case? Because God said so? Isn't that a bit circular? How do you know he's telling you the truth? How do you know God is good? Maybe he is deceiving you and Satan is really the good one. Just having a God doesn't give you knowledge of goodness. You still have to render your own judgement independently.

[Kelp(p)]

You say God is just. You say God is merciful. You say God is loving. How do you know that to be the case? Because God said so? Isn't that a bit circular? How do you know he's telling you the truth? How do you know God is good? Maybe he is deceiving you and Satan is really the good one. Just having a God doesn't give you knowledge of goodness. You still have to render your own judgement independently.

I know it because valuing love, goodness, and wonder at the world is more fundamentally human than hatred is. So if there is a supreme power in the universe, and if it does care a lick about human life, then it must favor these things over death and strife.

[seer]

You say God is just. You say God is merciful. You say God is loving. How do you know that to be the case? Because God said so? Isn't that a bit circular? How do you know he's telling you the truth? How do you know God is good? Maybe he is deceiving you and Satan is really the good one. Just having a God doesn't give you knowledge of goodness. You still have to render your own judgement independently.

OK, you are free to worship Satan if you wish. And back to my OP. If we live in a godless universe then the acts of a Mao or Stalin are no more objectively evil that when one group of chimpanzees slaughters another group of chimpanzees. Evolution in motion - animals doing what animals do. No matter your subjective moral belief.

[Enjolras]

OK, you are free to worship Satan if you wish. And back to my OP. If we live in a godless universe then the acts of a Mao or Stalin are no more objectively evil that when one group of chimpanzees slaughters another group of chimpanzees. Evolution in motion - animals doing what animals do. No matter your subjective moral belief.

This has already been addressed. We don't hold 1 year old humans to be morally accountable any more than chimps. Yet we do regard adult humans as moral agents. Why do you suppose that is?

[Kelp(p)]

This has already been addressed. We don't hold 1 year old humans to be morally accountable any more than chimps. Yet we do regard adult humans as moral agents. Why do you suppose that is?

Because we've got to have law enforcement and punishment in order to have a stable, working society?

[Enjolras]

Because we've got to have law enforcement and punishment in order to have a stable, working society?

I was thinking because we are capable of moral reasoning and reflection due to our developed complex nervous systems.

Law enforcement is nice too. ;)