Divine revelation

[robrecht]

One possible source of this is prior Revelations failed to prohibit the burning of books, and tragic events such as the tragic burning of the library of Alexandria occurred.

In previous religions such things as slavery were allowed, and sometimes defined and regulated by scripture. In the Baha'i Law, all forms of slavery and indentured servitude are forbidden.

Also previous Revelations evolved an egocentric exclusiveness in their religion, even though this may have not been necessarily explicitly defined in the Revelation, and I believe this sense of exclusive is a cultural paradigm of ancient religions. The concept that Revelation is universal with all humanity throughout all human history is considered a contradiction by most religions.

Many of the spiritual laws of the Baha'i Faith are laws that were lacking or previously incomplete in previous Revelations.

This Tenth Glad Tiding seems more specific than that for it says: "We have removed from the Holy Scriptures and Tablets the law prescribing the destruction of books." What law was this? Is there some specific law in the Qur'an or in other Holy Scriptures and Tablets that prescribed the destruction of books? This also sounds a little similar to the early purging of prior copies of the Qur'an ordered by Caliph Uthman, but I do not know any such practice was ever prescribed in holy scriptures and tablets?

[robrecht]

The problem is the concept of infallibility and inerrancy of scripture does not mean things do not change in the Baha'i Faith like in some ancient religions. ...

In what sense to Baha'i consider their holy scriptures to be infallible?

[OingoBoingo]

In previous revelations Holy War is either endorsed or allowed in interpretation. In the Baha'i Faith Holy War is forbidden.

Well...not really. There are a number of places that Baha'i leaders talked in militaristic terms, and hinted at a future Holy War of sorts:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj_institution_counsellors#16a

The need to protect the Faith from the attacks of its enemies may not be generally appreciated by the friends, particularly in places where attacks have been infrequent. However, it is certain that such opposition will increase, become concerted, and eventually universal. The writings clearly foreshadow not only an intensification of the machinations of internal enemies, but a rise in the hostility and opposition of its external enemies, whether religious or secular, as the Cause pursues its onward march towards ultimate victory. Therefore, in the light of the warnings of the Guardian, the Auxiliary Boards for Protection should keep "constantly" a "watchful eye" on those "who are known to be enemies, or to have been put out of the Faith", discreetly investigate their activities, alert intelligently the friends to the opposition inevitably to come, explain how each crisis in God's Faith has always proved to be a blessing in disguise, and prepare them for the "dire contest which is destined to range the Army of Light against the forces of darkness".

© Copyright Original Source

[robrecht]

I asked Frank a question earlier about dissent within the Baha'i religion but did not receive a response so I just did a quck Google search. I stumbled upon a case of a supposedly 'excommunicated' Baha'i named Sen McGlinn, who wrote a book entitled Church and State: A Postmodern Political Theology. If what I read is correct, the International House of Justice wrote a letter about him to all National Spiritual Assemblies, which included the following:

I find this very interesting. In an earlier thread, I attempted to engage Shuny about his claim:

"Degree and role of free thought is an important issue in humanism as differenciated from theism. Theism in one way or another discourages free thought."

This claim seems to be true for Baha'i who presume to be theologians writing for other Baha'i.

[OingoBoingo]

I asked Frank a question earlier about dissent within the Baha'i religion but did not receive a response so I just did a quck Google search. I stumbled upon a case of a supposedly 'excommunicated' Baha'i named Sen McGlinn, who wrote a book entitled Church and State: A Postmodern Political Theology. If what I read is correct, the International House of Justice wrote a letter about him to all National Spiritual Assemblies, which included the following:

I find this very interesting. In an earlier thread, I attempted to engage Shuny about his claim:

"Degree and role of free thought is an important issue in humanism as differenciated from theism. Theism in one way or another discourages free thought."

This claim seems to be true for Baha'i who presume to be theologians writing for other Baha'i.

Yeah, as I understand it, what happened was that in the 90s there were some early online forums of Baha'is on Yahoo and on Usenet groups. One in particular, Talisman, attracted a number of academics and intellectuals who were Baha'is. The Universal House of Justice found the nature of some of their discussions uncomfortable, and ruled that a number of the members were dissidents. They then excommunicated a number of those members, and other academics. You can find out a lot about this from blogs of excommunicated members, but the Baha'i Library Online actually hosts a paper about the issue here: http://bahai-library.com/dawai_bahai_subud_dissent.

Here is a snippet from the article:



I don't know if Sen McGlinn is strictly a Baha'i theologian, but he wrote his MA dissertation on Church and State in Islam and the Baha’i Faith, and last anyone has heard, was working on a study of the institutions of the Baha’i community, which was intended to become a PhD thesis.

[shunyadragon]

In what sense to Baha'i consider their holy scriptures to be infallible?

The spiritual law and teachings in the scriptures are infallible and inerrant.

[robrecht]

The spiritual law and teachings in the scriptures are infallible and inerrant.

I already know what you consider infallible and inerrant. What I asked is, in what sense are they infallible. For example, you've arleady said that they can be changed by subsequent revelation. So perhaps there is some sense of temporary infallibility and temporary inerrancy? Sort of like the best approximation that one can arrive at for now but theoretically or potentially able to improved upon. Is that correct? Or do you have a better explanation of how your holy scriptures are infallible and inerrant?

[shunyadragon]

Well...not really. There are a number of places that Baha'i leaders talked in militaristic terms, and hinted at a future Holy War of sorts:

Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj_institution_counsellors#16a

The need to protect the Faith from the attacks of its enemies may not be generally appreciated by the friends, particularly in places where attacks have been infrequent. However, it is certain that such opposition will increase, become concerted, and eventually universal. The writings clearly foreshadow not only an intensification of the machinations of internal enemies, but a rise in the hostility and opposition of its external enemies, whether religious or secular, as the Cause pursues its onward march towards ultimate victory. Therefore, in the light of the warnings of the Guardian, the Auxiliary Boards for Protection should keep "constantly" a "watchful eye" on those "who are known to be enemies, or to have been put out of the Faith", discreetly investigate their activities, alert intelligently the friends to the opposition inevitably to come, explain how each crisis in God's Faith has always proved to be a blessing in disguise, and prepare them for the "dire contest which is destined to range the Army of Light against the forces of darkness".

© Copyright Original Source

The following should be sufficient specifying the prohibition of actual Holy War, and not symbolic passages on spiritual conflict, which in and of themselves do not advocate holy war.

'O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world's religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requireth.'

Baha'u'llah

Source: Baha'u'llah and the New Era, Pages 169-171: gr2

When Baha'u'llah appeared, He declared that the promulgation of the truth by such means must on no account be allowed, even for purposes of self-defense. He abrogated the rule of the sword and annulled the ordinance of "Holy War." "If ye be slain," said He, "it is better for you than to slay. It is through the firmness and assurance of the faithful that the Cause of the Lord must be diffused. As the faithful, fearless and undaunted, arise with absolute detachment to exalt the Word of God, and, with eyes averted from the things of this world, engaged in service for the Lord's sake and by His power, thereby will they cause the Word of Truth to triumph. These blessed souls bear witness by their lifeblood to the truth of the Cause and attest it by the sincerity of their faith, their devotion and their constancy. The Lord can avail to diffuse His Cause and to defeat the forward. We desire no defender but Him, and with our lives in our hands face the foe and welcome martyrdom."

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

I asked Frank a question earlier about dissent within the Baha'i religion but did not receive a response so I just did a quck Google search. I stumbled upon a case of a supposedly 'excommunicated' Baha'i named Sen McGlinn, who wrote a book entitled Church and State: A Postmodern Political Theology. If what I read is correct, the International House of Justice wrote a letter about him to all National Spiritual Assemblies, which included the following:

I find this very interesting. In an earlier thread, I attempted to engage Shuny about his claim:

"Degree and role of free thought is an important issue in humanism as differenciated from theism. Theism in one way or another discourages free thought."

This claim seems to be true for Baha'i who presume to be theologians writing for other Baha'i.

If you notice, I said 'in one way or another,' including the Baha'i Faith, humanism, in fact as stated in the 'Principles of Belief' for the Unitarian Universalists,' does have greater freedom of thought then theism in that nothing theist is sacred in terms of the nature of God and Revelation. There are no sacred core beliefs in the Theistic sense. The above is an example of the problem of one 'claiming to be an authority' over the authority of the elected Universal House of Justice as the interpreter of Baha'i scripture.

To become a Baha'i, is to embrace the core theistic belief of the Baha'i Faith and the authority of the scriptures and the Universal House of Justice. Personal opinions beyond this is wide open, and not an issue unless one claims an unwarranted claim of authority as an individual.

[robrecht]

If you notice, I said 'in one way or another,' including the Baha'i Faith, humanism, in fact as stated in the 'Principles of Belief' for the Unitarian Universalists,' does have greater freedom of thought then theism in that nothing theist is sacred in terms of the nature of God and Revelation. There are no sacred core beliefs in the Theistic sense. The above is an example of the problem of one 'claiming to be an authority' over the authority of the elected Universal House of Justice as the interpreter of Baha'i scripture.

To become a Baha'i, is to embrace the core theistic belief of the Baha'i Faith and the authority of the scriptures and the Universal House of Justice. Personal opinions beyond this is wide open, and not an issue unless one claims an unwarranted claim of authority as an individual.

[shunyadragon]

Did he really claim any kind of authority comparable or competitive with the infallible International House of Justice? .

It is my understanding that he did.

[robrecht]

It is my understanding that he did.

[shunyadragon]

I already know what you consider infallible and inerrant. What I asked is, in what sense are they infallible. For example, you've arleady said that they can be changed by subsequent revelation. So perhaps there is some sense of temporary infallibility and temporary inerrancy? Sort of like the best approximation that one can arrive at for now but theoretically or potentially able to improved upon. Is that correct? Or do you have a better explanation of how your holy scriptures are infallible and inerrant?

Yes, there is a concept of 'temporal infallibility and inerrancy,' because our spiritual nature evolves and becomes more mature. It is my understanding that the basic foundation principles such as the 'Oneness of God,' and the 'Universal nature of Revelation' are universal truths and will never change. spiritual laws as in the Katab-I-agdas will be subject to change. The process of change will parallel a natural evolving human nature, and the evolving spiritual civilization that will likely extend to the planets and possibly beyond.

Some of this is of course conjecture, but the reality is that the Baha'i view reflects the natural, and spiritual evolution of humanity and the nature of our physical existence that we experience closer then any other of the ancient religions.

If a 'Source' some call God(s) exists, it is most likely the God of the Baha'i Faith.

[shunyadragon]

This Tenth Glad Tiding seems more specific than that for it says: "We have removed from the Holy Scriptures and Tablets the law prescribing the destruction of books." What law was this? Is there some specific law in the Qur'an or in other Holy Scriptures and Tablets that prescribed the destruction of books? This also sounds a little similar to the early purging of prior copies of the Qur'an ordered by Caliph Uthman, but I do not know any such practice was ever prescribed in holy scriptures and tablets?

Uncertain, I will check.

[robrecht]

Yes, there is a concept of 'temporal infallibility and inerrancy,' because our spiritual nature evolves and becomes more mature. It is my understanding that the basic foundation principles such as the 'Oneness of God,' and the 'Universal nature of Revelation' are universal truths and will never change. spiritual laws as in the Katab-I-agdas will be subject to change. The process of change will parallel a natural evolving human nature, and the evolving spiritual civilization that will likely extend to the planets and possibly beyond.

Some of this is of course conjecture, but the reality is that the Baha'i view reflects the natural, and spiritual evolution of humanity and the nature of our physical existence that we experience closer then any other of the ancient religions.

If a 'Source' some call God(s) exists, it is most likely the God of the Baha'i Faith.

1. If one of the basic foundational principles is the 'Oneness of God', why do you speak here (and elsewhere) of 'God(s)'?
   
2. Do you perhaps mean something more aking to the neo-Platonic simplicity of God, ie, undefinability but not numerical 'oneness'?
   
3. What is your basis for saying that the Baha'i view more closely reflects the natural and spiritual evolution of humanity than other religions?
   
4. How exactly do you differentiate between the God of the Baha'i faith and the God of other religious people?
   
5. When you claim that it is most likely the God of the Baha'i faith that exists (ie, not the God of other peoples?), is that not an unnecessarily divisive claim that militates against the Baha'i promotion of unity of humankind and the 'Universal nature of Revelation?