Originally posted by MaxVel
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
In that case, a militant antinatalist could become a negative utility monster and, in the least, go around kidnapping, sedating (presumably before the kidnapping to avoid suffering), and sterilising people to prevent any suffering of future "conscious creatures".
Our negative utility monster would argue that all suffering in life is, in aggregate, unnecessary, as life itself is unnecessary. Furthermore, our (friend/fiend) could argue that there is greater number of non-human conscious creatures that are unnecessarily suffering due to human activity than there are humans thus their aggregate unnecessary suffering is quite high compared to the aggregate unnecessary human suffering. In the interest of the aggregate amount of unnecessary suffering, human-attributed unnecessary suffering should be ended.
It's more in a gray area of "objective" as it's not "objective" in the strictest sense of ontological objectivity. We can say the moon's existence is objective as it's not dependent on a mind for it's existence. Also, basing morality on qualia will run afoul of hard physical monism. If we are p-zombies, then we don't actually suffer. We may have specific neural patterns, but there's not qualia of suffering present.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe majority of people in so-called Christian societies are merely cultural Christians - just as those in Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim societies have been socially acculturated into the dominant social values of their society.
A trivial observation, from which nothing of real significance follows about the truth or otherwise of any of the mentioned beliefs.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostEach person has to make a personal decision to become a Christian at some point in their life, even those raised in Christian families, who are brought up and taught the evidence. You are also ignoring 2000 years of apologetics and study of Christianity.
But not surprised that most still choose donuts.
After all, says here their people have been doing donuts for thousands of years.
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Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostFaith has always meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context. It's how religionists use it - whenever questioned about something they can't answer, the response is "You just have to have faith" (ie., belief despite the absence of evidence). It's how everybody uses it.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence. A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostA person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence. A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou're ignoring the fact that most all christians were raised as christians, most all muslims were raised as muslims etc etc. The decision is impressed upon them. What you call teaching is actually indoctrination of the young uncritical mind.
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Originally posted by JonathanL View PostAs I said, "Christians who have never bothered doing any serious study in their own faith and what it's doctrines entails" might define faith that way. The same people you term "religionists". But faith in a religious context isn't determined by majority usage, but by how the doctrinal texts of the religion (or how a particular denomination, if you're interested in what that specific denomination believes) defines the term.
And no, it's not how "everybody" uses it, you have absolutely zero basis to make that claim, except for anecdotal experience.
Faith, at least in a Protestantic context, is closer to `trust` rather than belief. Belief comes from faith, but is not equivalent to it.
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Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostFaith has always meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context. It's how religionists use it - whenever questioned about something they can't answer, the response is "You just have to have faith" (ie., belief despite the absence of evidence). It's how everybody uses it.
And no, it's not how "everybody" uses it, you have absolutely zero basis to make that claim, except for anecdotal experience.
Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostAgain, if 'faith' just means 'belief', why use it? Why not just use 'belief'? Because faith is a particular type of belief; belief despite the absence of evidence.
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Originally posted by JonathanL View PostNo that's what faith means when clueless internet atheists are asked to give a definition of the word. Faith has never meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context, save for in atheistic caricatures or when being given as an answer by Christians who have never bothered doing any serious study in their own faith and what it's doctrines entails.
Again, if 'faith' just means 'belief', why use it? Why not just use 'belief'? Because faith is a particular type of belief; belief despite the absence of evidence.
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