I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God

[JimL]

Christians disagree on exactly what the sin nature is. And we are weird individualists whereas the people in Bible times were group-oriented and would have no problem with the concept. http://www.tektonics.org/lp/origsin.php

Which means that Adam didn't pass on a sin nature to his descendents like christians here have been asserting, but rather the idea is that he brought the law against sinning into the world. But how by sinning could Adam be said to have brought the law against sin into the world if there was no law prior to his sinning? If there was no law, then there was no sin, correct? So Adam was punished though he violated no law. And then you have Paul saying that christians, because of their belief, are not under the law. Therefore, Adam didn't bring sin into the world, nor the law against sin, but like I said, judgement is based not on sin, not on the law against sin, but on what one subjectively believes, i.e. on whether they believe in Jesus or not.
Besides that, to argue that there being no law and therefore no sin, is to argue that there was no objective standard of morality, no absolute right or wrong prior to Adam.

[Christianbookworm]

We live in a world of hatd knocks because of their poor choices. Children often sadly suffer from their parents' bad choices.

[JimL]

We live in a world of hatd knocks because of their poor choices. Children often sadly suffer from their parents' bad choices.

That's obviously true, but that doesn't support the christian doctrine of original sin and the fall of man. It also doesn't answer to anything I said in the previous post.

[Sparko]

That's obviously true, but that doesn't support the christian doctrine of original sin and the fall of man. It also doesn't answer to anything I said in the previous post.

Great. all you have to do to disprove that we have a sin nature is point out someone who has never done anything they knew is wrong. Never told a lie, never cheated, etc.

[JimL]

Great. all you have to do to disprove that we have a sin nature is point out someone who has never done anything they knew is wrong. Never told a lie, never cheated, etc.

Try to follow, Sparko. I never said we don't sin, I said that the fact that we sin or have a sin nature if you will, has nothing to do with a fall, or with Adam's act of sinning. Obviously Adam sinned, so his nature didn't change after he sinned, his nature was the same before he sinned, or he wouldn't have sinned. Simple logic! Adam didn't pass down anything of his nature to his descendencts that wasn't there prior to his sinning.

[Tassman]

We live in a world of hatd knocks because of their poor choices. Children often sadly suffer from their parents' bad choices.

[Sparko]

Try to follow, Sparko. I never said we don't sin, I said that the fact that we sin or have a sin nature if you will, has nothing to do with a fall, or with Adam's act of sinning. Obviously Adam sinned, so his nature didn't change after he sinned, his nature was the same before he sinned, or he wouldn't have sinned. Simple logic! Adam didn't pass down anything of his nature to his descendencts that wasn't there prior to his sinning.

Again, why don't you actually bother to read the bible at least once before making declarations of what you think it says? You have no basis for arguing with Christians about what we believe if you have never even read the book our faith is based on.

But then you routinely argue in civics about the constitution and it is clear you never read that either. sigh.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Which means that Adam didn't pass on a sin nature to his descendents like christians here have been asserting, but rather the idea is that he brought the law against sinning into the world.

This whole idea of original sin being passed on down the generations comes from Augustine who held that Humankind/Man is born into a world of sin. Judaism does not believe that Adam's sin is passed on to every succeeding generation. That is a particularly Christian view, that originates with Paul.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

We live in a world of hatd knocks because of their poor choices. Children often sadly suffer from their parents' bad choices.

One has to therefore conclude that the Christian deity is not omniscient.

If it was indeed so It would have known that It had created Adam with an inbuilt flaw and that despite Its injunctions, Adam and Eve would be tempted.

The other conclusion being that the deity purposefully and deliberately set A&E up to fail.

[Sparko]

This whole idea of original sin being passed on down the generations comes from Augustine who held that Humankind/Man is born into a world of sin. Judaism does not believe that Adam's sin is passed on to every succeeding generation. That is a particularly Christian view, that originates with Paul.

You are both confusing "original sin" with "sin nature" - Original sin is a concept held by Catholics that we are all guilty of Adam's sin by virtue of being his children. A sin nature just means that we are all sinners and are only guilty of our own sins, which we all commit. Even the ancient Hebrews believed that, thus the rites of atonement and temple sacrifices. Protestants don't believe in Original Sin, but we do believe in all men being sinners and having a sin nature which is akin to being born with a propensity to sin. But we are not guilty of sin until we actually reach the age of accountability, when you know right from wrong and still choose wrong. Thus young children, and people who are mentally incapable of understanding right from wrong are not guilty of sin, even though they still actually DO sin.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You are both confusing "original sin" with "sin nature" - Original sin is a concept held by Catholics that we are all guilty of Adam's sin by virtue of being his children.

I am not "confusing" anything.

I leave confusion to those bucolic types who mistake mainstream NT scholarship with what they consider to be fringe theories merely because their little world of biblical inerrancy is not overly familiar with academia.

[Sparko]

I am not "confusing" anything.

Yes, you were, because nobody here has been arguing for "Original sin" yet you felt obligated to tell us who "invented" it. JimL has similarly confused the term with what I have been arguing with him about. I was merely trying to point that fact out. You're welcome.

I leave confusion to those bucolic types who mistake mainstream NT scholarship with what they consider to be fringe theories merely because their little world of biblical inerrancy is not overly familiar with academia.

Perhaps you too should actually read the bible instead of merely reading books about it. Your arguments are like someone debating a movie they never watched but only read critic reviews about it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Yes, you were, because nobody here has been arguing for "Original sin" yet you felt obligated to tell us who "invented" it.

You misuse terms so easily I am not surprised you get confused.

Augustine based his beliefs upon Genesis 3:17-19. He did not "invent" anything. Augustine of Hippo is possibly one of the most important ECFs and his writings have had a profound influence on the Christianity of the West.

Perhaps you too should actually read the bible instead of merely reading books about it.

Which Bible did you have in mind?

[Sparko]

You misuse terms so easily I am not surprised you get confused.

Augustine based his beliefs upon Genesis 3:17-19. He did not "invent" anything. Augustine of Hippo is possibly one of the most important ECFs and his writings have had a profound influence on the Christianity of the West.

derp.

Which Bible did you have in mind?

You pick. Perhaps a translation in your native language.

[Whateverman]

You have seen no evidence of it because you know nothing about Christianity or the bible.

If that's true (and it isn't), you're at fault.

I'm here at a Christian forum; I've been discussing Christianity with Christians online for the better part of 30 years - online and in person. If as you say I know nothing about your religion or your holy book, then Christians have failed utterly to bring the gospel to anyone in this country for that same time frame.

I've been here at TWeb for several months. If I still know nothing about your religion, you're an awful Christian.